Hide glue on gladius tang?

[Nihonius Legio]

Hi all, I've recently taken a great interest in forging blades (the real way). Most of the knife making instructions I've seen say to glue the tang into the handle before peening it all together. I asked on a blacksmithing forum if this was absolutely necessary, because I had never heard about needing such a thing for a gladius on here. They said it wasnt absolutley necessary if the handle was a perfect fit, but it was still a good idea. They said use hide glue if I wanted to be authentic. For at least non-Roman blades I would be open to using hide glue since it is natural, but does anyone know if the Romans ever used it to secure their swords? If so, I would think it would be a good precaution worth mentioning (like in the Leg XX handbook for example).

Thanks all,
-Nihonius

[Medicus matt]

I'd have thought that if the objective is to fill any voids in a badly fitting handle/hilt then you want some sort of pitch glues/cutlers resin, which has been in use as an adhesive since the stone age and was still being used by cutlers until fairly recently. Don't know of any evidence for this being used in in roman sword or knife assembly but I think it would work better than hide glue.

There's some evidence (not to hand at the mo though, sorry) that some migration period pommel caps were filled with lead to help secure the tang and that pitch may have been used on seax handles.

However, I've never found it neccesary to use anything other than peening over the tang tip to hold the handle components together, be it a sword or a knife.

[Matt Lukes]

Well it would certainly depend on the type of handle you're talking about; a bone handle is unlikely to often fit well given the size differences between the tangs on real Gladii, and the marrow spaces of the known bone grips. Neither is there any obvious attempt to shape the interiors and given the natural shape of the marrow spaces, i.e., not straight, it would indeed seem that some kind of packing would be necessary, however nothing I know of has been preserved or is discernable. Having done a good deal of swordmaking myself now and having used hide glue a good deal as well, I'm doubtful that it'd be appropriate for this purpose; glue isn't the greatest space filler given that it shrinks, is subject to re-gelling if it gets wet, etc. Unfortunately, I've never found any information about evidence for possible materials from examination of the interiors of any bone handle or intact gladius with one. Ivory could be carved to a well-fitting shape so some kind of adhesive makes sense for a tighter fit- I'd lean more to a pitch or something though for toughness and water resistence. Wood can be burn-fitted so also wouldn't require much.

Matt

[Nihonius Legio]

Ya, I would think water might be an issue, but thats what these knife makers are saying. They call the stuff they fill the handle with "epoxy" which I have always just thought of as glue. So im guessing pitch doesnt shrink so much like glue? Isnt it like tree sap or tar or someting? Doesnt it melt in heat or ooze?

They also told me on there that the Roman swords were wrought iron, is that so? I though they were something closer to mild steel, but a guy on this forum said that has only been around since 1856. I though wrought iron was only good for fences and stuff.

[Matt Lukes]

Yes, pitch is largely hardened tree sap- pine usually. Other things can be mixed in- ash, etc. Bitumen was also used. Both are melted, yes, but over a fire, and are waterproof. Pitch was supposed to have been used to secure stone tools to hafting, so has been around for a very long time.

Wrought iron is roughly the same as mild steel in carbon content (0.15-.025%, although wrought iron can have as little as 0.05%)- it's different in that the distribution of carbon in modern mild steel is far more even and there are slag inclusions in wrought iron.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Unfortunately, I've never found any information about evidence for possible materials from examination of the interiors of any bone handle or intact gladius with one.

bitumen is what you´re looking for...

[Nihonius Legio]

I doubt I can naturally get my hands on thick crude oil, but the pitch idea might work. Too bad I dont live near very many pines. There is one kind of little bushy evergreen that grown in the hills of my area, im not sure if it would work or not. maybe... I looked up the steps to make it, and will probably try it out sometime.

[Hibernicus]

need asphalt? ...go to roofing supplies...

I like to pack the voids with raw wool. It packs well, keeps a loose handgrip in place, stops it from rotating... and offers some cushioning reducing shock transfer..

Did Romans use it? Don't know. I was told years ago that it has been found in "medieval" swords handles.

[Nihonius Legio]

That's a pretty cool idea.