Single grip aspis

[PMBardunias]

When the peltes are shown held in the forearm like an argive shield,they also have an antilabe. ... The porpax does not allow for central grip of cource,but on the other hand,I've already expressed my doubts that the crossed stipes can serve as central grip.

It seems clear from images of pelta that something doesn't add up. If we take everything at face value then there were two seperate types of crescent shaped pelta, for we see depictions with a porpax which can only be used in a double-grip and also peltae that are gripped in the hand. This is possible, but I think unlikely. Within the "double grip" group we also see some with a porpax like an aspis and some with a pair of straps or a strap and crossed thongs over the forearm. This too is possible, but the crossed straps or ropes are also seen on many depictions of "boeotian shields an seem to have a bracing function beyond aiding the grip. Some have identified the crossing lines as spreaders, stiff rods that hold the shield spread, but often they are clearly rope.

To me the simplest, of course not always the correct, answer is that there was a system that could be held in one hand or along the forearm at need. The double-strap system, to the left and right of the shield's center as seen clearly on that sarcophagus from Cannakkale I posted a while back, can do this. You should try it, you will be suprised how simple it is. The straps do not need to be very long, nor exceedingly far apart. The double strap system is a firmer grip than a single flexible rope-grip, though probably inferior to a single handle.

[Paullus Scipio]

[attachment=0:3efyb8ql]<!-- ia0 archaic greek shield.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:3efyb8ql]


Here is a Greek archaic example of a single grip shield, that pre-dated the aspis, and a type that was common through early iron age Europe.....

[Archelaos]

This particular votive shield from Olympia is dated to late Vth - early IVth century BC. It's 33,8cm wide, so it can't be battle shield

[hoplite14gr]

These two come from Delfoi Museum and they are mid-Geometeric period combat shields.
Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

This particular votive shield from Olympia is dated to late Vth - early IVth century BC. It's 33,8cm wide, so it can't be battle shield

Where did you get your information from? Can you tell us more?.....if the dating is right, perhaps it is not Greek at all, but, say a dedicated spoil of war, as an example ; captured perhaps from some Illyrian tribesman.....and small circular battle-shields are not unknown ( e.g. Spanish caetra)

Please tell us more!

[Archelaos]

This particular votive shield from Olympia is dated to late Vth - early IVth century BC. It's 33,8cm wide, so it can't be battle shield

Where did you get your information from? Can you tell us more?.....if the dating is right, perhaps it is not Greek at all, but, say a dedicated spoil of war, as an example ; captured perhaps from some Illyrian tribesman.....and small circular battle-shields are not unknown ( e.g. Spanish caetra)

Please tell us more!

This is from Die Makedonische Shield by K. Liampi (1998). She suggest that is an offering from Macedonia from the rule of Archelaos, and first example of "Macedonian decoration" - arches around edge and central motif. It is in catalogue of the Macedonian shields at the end of the book. I never translated full description as my german is rather poor and it was not really important for me, but in heading date, size and place of find is named.

[PMBardunias]

I came across this reference and thought it might have bearing on the boeotian sheild debate: Dionysios of Halicarnasus (see bold section):

70 The sixth division of his religious institutions was devoted to those the Romans call Salii, whom Numa himself appointed out of the patricians, choosing twelve young men of the most graceful appearance.99 These are the Salii whose holy things are deposited on the Palatine hill and who are themselves called the (Salii) Palatini; for the (Salii) Agonales,100 by some called the Salii Collini, the repository of whose holy things is on the Quirinal hill,101 were appointed after Numa's time by King Hostilius, in pursuance of a vow he had made in the war against the Sabines. All these Salii are a kind of dancers and singers of hymns in praise of the gods of war. 2 Their festival falls about the time of the Panathenaea,102 in the month which they call March, and is celebrated at the public expense for many days, during which they proceed through the city with their dances to the Forum and to the Capitol and to many other places both private and public. They wear embroidered tunics girt about with wide girdles of bronze, and over these are fastened, with brooches, robes striped with scarlet and bordered with purple, which they call trabeae; this garment is peculiar to the Romans and a mark of the greatest honour. p517On their heads they wear apices, as they are called, that is, high caps contracted into the shape of a cone, which the Greeks call kyrbasiai. 3 They have each of them a sword hanging at their girdle and in their right hand they hold a spear or a staff or something else of the sort, and on their left arm a Thracian buckler, which resembles a lozenge-shaped shield with its sides drawn in,103 such as those are said to carry who among the Greeks perform the sacred rites of the Curetes. 4 And, in my opinion at least, the Salii, if the word be translated into Greek, are Curetes, whom, because they are kouroi or "young men," we call by that name from their age, whereas the Romans call them Salii from their lively motions. For to leap and skip is by them called salire; and for the same reason they call all other dancers saltatores, deriving their name from the Salii, because their dancing also is attended by much leaping and capering. 5 Whether I have been well advised or not in giving them this appellation, anyone who pleases may gather from their actions. For they execute their movements in arms, keeping time to a flute, sometimes all together, sometimes by turns, and while dancing sing certain traditional hymns. But this dance and exercise performed by armed men and the noise they make by striking their bucklers with their daggers, if we may base any conjectures on the ancient accounts, p519was originated by the Curetes. I need not mention the legend104 which is related concerning them, since almost everybody is acquainted with it.

These shields were "8" shaped as can be seen on coins. Why call them Thracian? What Greek rights used such shields? If anyone has the original text, it would be interesting to verify some details of the translation- such as "on the arm" for how it is carried.

[Kineas]

Heretical as usual--wy is it so odd that there were still single grip aspides in 550?

Every one of the major armour/military historians of this period--Hanson, Van Wees, Snodgrass--now reject the early development of the hoplite and have moved their hoplite dates way forward into the 6th c. And accepting the evidence at face value is the Occam's Razor approach....

[nikolaos]

This thread causes me some some concern, as assumptions are a bad place to start a discussion.

Paul B wrote:
>I'd never seen an obvious aspis held by a handgrip instead of a porpax until I came across this image. Bonn Hydria circe 550 BC. If the date is
>correct, I doubt that an aspis without porpax was in contemporary use. It is interesting though as an example of artistic anachronism (or simple
>mistake). They hoplites are Lapiths fighting centaurs, so perhaps showing "old-style" shields was intentional

There are a couple of interpretations of this image. You immediately assume that the shield is porpaxless because it is gripped by the centre.

However, this is not the only possibility. It is also possible that the shield is being gripped by the porpax, as a number of porpaxes survive that could be gripped. Clearly the painter was aware an aspis could have a porpax, antilabe arrangement, as the third figure is depicted as holding the shield in the more common way.

As to whether this is deliberate anachronism or not is a question that skips important precursor questions:

- Is it possible to fight with a centre gripped aspsis?
- Are there any other sources depicting this usage?

If the answer to those two questions is yes, the possibility that this was a practice as opposed to just art is on the table.

Have fun!
Cole

[PMBardunias]

Heretical as usual--wy is it so odd that there were still single grip aspides in 550?

Sharpen the stake and light the fires! Actually, it is only odd because this is the single image that I have seen where this is done. One thing I will say is that I do not buy the notion that the aspis was too heavy to be held by one hand with a central grip. This was put forth to explain the doble-grip and the invention of the rim as a shoulder rest. The problem with this is that there are some truly huge Assyrian round shields with central bosses. Also, looking at the profile of a section of an aspis shows that a substantial portion of the weight comes from the rim itself. If an aspis had a single grip it could simply be rested on the ground when not in use.

- Is it possible to fight with a centre gripped aspsis?

I knew of a reenactor who took to doing this in order to make the aspis more useful for one on one combat. Surely it could be done, especially because the porpax is centered. If the porpax and antilabe flanked the center as on most other double-grip shields, this would be more difficult.

I think the obstacles to this notion are that the wide bronze porpax is really quite difficult to hold in one hand. The more narrow ones are thought to be missing a sleeve section if I recall, but whether they could be more versatile I cannot say.

- Are there any other sources depicting this usage?

Not this late to my knowledge.

[Timotheus]

Hmm. That's Greek to me.

Oops, forgot the translation. It is Socrates's famous assertion that he only knows that he knows nothing. That pretty well sums up my take on our ability to reliably interpret many vase images.

I agree completely. You can never know what is accurate and what is artistic license. I was recently reading a source that commented on specially trained warriors that all held their shield and spear reversed. The "evidence" for this was a vase or column (I forget which) where all of the attackers, who were attacking from left to right, were shown holding their weapons that way. This really jarred with me because to me it became obvious that you cannot make this statement at all. For all you know the artist didnt want to try and render warriors with spear in foreground and shield in background (becuase its harder to do) so they just reversed it for ease. To take a single artistic piece and make such a bold statement is rather assuming.

[hoplite14gr]

6th century corsemen frmo Hereon of Samos.
Single grip shields and one shield boss clear.
Kind regards