Single grip aspis

[PMBardunias]

I'd never seen an obvious aspis held by a handgrip instead of a porpax until I came across this image. Bonn Hydria circe 550 BC. If the date is correct, I doubt that an aspis without porpax was in contemporary use. It is interesting though as an example of artistic anachronism (or simple mistake). They hoplites are Lapiths fighting centaurs, so perhaps showing "old-style" shields was intentional.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Good find! I'd say the date is correct,as the shape of the helmet proves. Really interesting style and really interesting that the shields are center griped! Well,this brings to mind the older vase with the centered grip dipylon...There too both round and dipylon shields were shown held in the center. So it can work either way and question aslo your theory about the center griped boeotian/dipylon
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Not my theory, but an old one. I think this image supports the notion that artists were not above combining contemporary and archaic elements in the same panoply, since I doubt the existence of a single-grip argive-aspis in 550 BC.

[Paullus Scipio]

Not my theory, but an old one. I think this image supports the notion that artists were not above combining contemporary and archaic elements in the same panoply, since I doubt the existence of a single-grip argive-aspis in 550 BC.

....as you would expect of an artist illustrating myth/legend ( but to him history!), and who can't know what his subject "really" looked like. The depictions tend to be a mixture of contemporary stuff, old stuff hanging as trophies in temples (e.g. "Theseus' Shield" ), and some imagination on the part of the artist. Pity they didn't label which was which though! It might resolve many of our debates...... D lol:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Indeed,or it may just offer one more good excuse for everything we don't know or don't believe yet,like artistic nudity, bare feet etc etc

[PMBardunias]

As Socrates said about understanding the ancient panoply from vase images: "hen oída hoti oudén oída"

[M. Demetrius]

Hmm. That's Greek to me. :?: :?

[hoplite14gr]

In the Delphoi Museum there is a single grip bronze shiels dates in the Early Geometric period.
Pausanias describeed 11th cent B.C. armor survivng to his day (1st century A.D.)

I am willing to accept that the artist had seen similar shileds hanging on the holy places and juged reasonably
that it would be fitting to show if he described a mythical scene.


"Porpax antilavi" appears probably earlier than the Lelantine War 8th ventury.
This combination establishes its supremacy in Hyssia 670 B.C. whem Pheidon crushed the Spartans.

Hoplites of central an northern Greece converted fully probably after the Persian Wars.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Hmm. That's Greek to me.

Oops, forgot the translation. It is Socrates's famous assertion that he only knows that he knows nothing. That pretty well sums up my take on our ability to reliably interpret many vase images.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Stefane,if the artist had really seen those(i asume few) round center griped shields in Olympia or elsewhere,then he should know that these were not deep at all and that they didn't have rims,and that they were not that big. In other words,they were completely different than the hoplite shield. I find myself more close to the hypothesis that artists aplied some of the old draditions in modern equipment.

[hoplite14gr]

Giannis your assumption is only 50% valid.
There is in my opinion 50% artistic error but "Herpsburg" style shields come in variants.
The ones in Delphoi had suffered structural damage and the one in Vienna is not flat at all.
We do not knwo how many specimens or what type the artist had seen.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Single, center grip shields were still the norm for the "barbarians" around greece, so all the artist need know is that in the past greeks used shields like that. Then he just applied a center grip to the shape of the aspis that his audience was familiar with. For a while now I have sought any archaeological evidence for a porpax on a pelta because of the opposite of this logic, I think greek artists simply misapply the greek porpax to the barbarian pelta.

[hoplite14gr]

National Archeological Museum Athen pottery collection has a cup that has a javelineer with corinthian helmet and showing porpax (non metallic) and antilavi on a cresent shaped pelta.
Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

National Archeological Museum Athen pottery collection has a cup that has a javelineer with corinthian helmet and showing porpax (non metallic) and antilavi on a cresent shaped pelta.

There are many images on vases of peltae with porpaxes, but I know of no actual archaeological finds of porpaxes that could be from peltae. I think the crescent-shaped pelta was gripped via a pair of cords that could be held in one hand or slipped on the forearm as need be. Greek artists mistakenly turned this into a porpax.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

When the peltes are shown held in the forearm like an argive shield,they also have an antilabe. If this was happening,I see it very plausible that the greek manufacturers actually put real porpakes in peltes. The porpax does not allow for central grip of cource,but on the other hand,I've already expressed my doubts that the crossed stipes can serve as central grip. They would need to be very small and tight. This was a shield,it was meant to receive violent blows,it had to be controled with accuracy and withstand such blows. Loose and long stripes such as those that let your arm pass under them cannot act as a trustworthy grip.
Khaire
Giannis