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01-15-2005, 07:03 PM

Greetings 
 
First, let me thank Richard Campbell for the wonderful site RAT has here. It is fascinating, informative and a lot of fun. 
 
I am the publisher of Major Clunn's forthcoming fully revised book "The Quest for the Lost Roman Legions: Discovering the Varus Battlefield." (Savas Beatie, March 31, 2005). In the 1980s, Major Clunn single-handedly discovered the location of this famous battle, one of the most important in Western history. The result is nearly two decades of archaeology that have changed our understanding of the battle substantially, and a wonderful museum and interpretive center at Kalkriese. 
 
"The Quest for the Lost Roman Legions" details how he found the field, and unfolds like a detective story, one clue at a time. In order to better understand what took place, he wove inside his book a parallel story that includes a remarkable series of real and fictional characters in their historical setting based upon archaeological discoveries, the topography, weather of the region, and so forth. This dual presentation paints a vivid understanding of how the Roman army lived and worked, and how it ultimately ended up in Kalkriese, where it was slaughtered nearly to a man. There is no one in the world who knows more about this battle than Major Clunn. Others have thrown together books or articles on the subject in an effort to cash in on his efforts and knowledge, but Major Clunn is the real deal (and a great guy, to boot). 
 
Although the book was delayed somewhat, it is going into bound galley now and will be at the printer within two weeks. You can see more about this at 
 
www.savasbeatie.com/bookListFall04.html (it was originally privately published in 1999, but has since sold out; this edition is fully revised, updated, and has new photos, maps, and an Introduction by Roman historian Derek Williams). 
 
Major Clunn will be visiting the USA from April 23 through May 14, and during that time will be meeting various historical groups from coast to coast to deliver talks and sign his new book. He does not want any speaking fees, and only asks for travel expenses and the ability to sell his book. This is a unique opportunity to have him address your group or combined groups/organizations, personalize your book, and answer every question you can think of about the Varus battlefield. 
 
However, he can only speak and travel so many times in three weeks! Therefore, the sooner you speak with your members and arrange a date and time, the sooner we can confirm his attendance. 
 
If you are interested in having him speak with you, please contact Sarah Stephan at [email protected] 
 
Thank you for your time and keep up the good work here on the site. 
 
Ted Savas 
Savas Beatie LLC 
[email protected] 
www.savasbeatie.com

Daniel S Peterson · 01-23-2005, 04:00 PM

The archaeology proves the Kalkriese site is no more than a small Roman outpost, probably overrun by Germans in the Varus period. Post holes from buildings, trash pits with ceramics and even furniture fragments all prove this, as well as the fact that the artifacts are largelyconcentrated in a small area, and not scatterered over miles as the destruction site of three Roman legions and auxilliaries would really suggest. Yet the site is still significant in that it sheds some light on equipment of that period, particularly the earliest lorica segmentata, and face mask helmets in a combat rather than sport context, but little more. There must have been dozens of similar Roman stations overrun in Roman occupied Germania, just as the Roman historian Tacitus says. Tony Clunn happended to find one of them, but another, perhaps even more important site has now been found and reported on this website. When the real Varus battle site is found, we will certainly know it, and there will be a lot more military equipment to be found the "shoe-box full", from the probably no more than a cohort that garrisioned the Kalrkriese station. 
Still, the new book might be fun, I'd still be looking for the real Varus battlefield myself if not for my reassignment back to the U.S. 
Dan

01-24-2005, 03:35 PM

Dan. Your sweeping statement about the location of the Varus battle is is propped up by a thin veneer of sophistry. To claim "archaeology proves the Kalkriese site is no more than a small Roman outpost" is breathtaking in its disingenuousness. To wit: Kalkriese has yielded an ambush wall at a geographic choke point, human and animal burial pits (not "trash" pits) that match ancient descriptions of the battle (Cassius Dio, Tacitius, etc.) regarding what Germanicus found, literally thousands of artifacts from weapons to coins-- and only a TINY SLICE of the field (I heard something like 2%) has been excavated to date. If this has been found on a tiny piece of the field, what else is awaiting discovery? Time will tell. 
 
There is a "new site" associated with the battle (it was, after all, a long and drawn out affair and Clunn only claims to have found the end piece). If we use your own logic, you would be dismissing outright the "new site" rather can calling it perhaps a more important site . . ." since it has not yielded anything comparable to Kalkriese--and therefore must be "no more than a small Roman outpost." 
 
Since the late 1980s, Major Clunn has been attacked by a host of people who persist in denigrating his find. Half the intrigue, after all, is that the Varus battle was "lost." Yet, his discovery has convinced credible archaeologists the world over and the tight-fisted German government to fund an expensive museum and interpretative center. 
 
Bit I wish you good luck in your search for the "real" Varus battlefield.

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-24-2005, 06:03 PM

Well said, that man! Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

01-26-2005, 06:36 AM

Regarding Dan's posting: 
 
There are naturally sceptics in any walk of life who believe their theory on a particular event or practical problem is the correct one. The discovery of the Varus Battlefield at Kalkriese upset any number of archaeologists and historians who believed the battle site to be in any one of some seven hundred alternative locations, but not at Kalkriese. 
 
In 1995 the County and Land authorities authorised and sponsored an International Symposium in the Stadthalle in Osnabruck to ask the Question: Is Kalkriese the site of the Varus Battle?" 
 
It was attended by upwards of 5-600 eminent historians and archaeologists, and hosted by Prof Dr Wiegels, Prof Dr Schluter, and Prof Dr Schnurbein, Germany's leading authority on Roman affairs. There were guest speakers, scientists, Roman experts on artifacts and the like, coin experts, and included those who were somewhat sceptical. At the end of the week's presentations it was firmly concluded that based on the finds and the evidence presented in the ground and recovered, including the age of the bones recovered in 1994 and thereafter, that this site is indeed the site of the Varus Battle, and not some small battle from the tie of Germanicus. 
 
For example the bones were finally established as having been circa 2,000 years old, were generally of the Italian stature, short and stocky rather than tall etc, most were male, they had not been buried and thrown into pits as such but had been placed in the earth after death as if placed in a burial mound or pit, had horses remains buried with them, in effect a form of altar, but most importantly of all, the bones had not been buried immediately after death, but had lain on the surface of the earth for some 2 - 8 years before they were actually interred..." 
 
(Read Tacitus, Germanicus' visit to the Varus Battlefield in AD15, six years after the battle had taken place in AD9. Can be copied from page 306 of my original English book text). 
 
Any sceptics who remain should read my book "The Quest for the Lost Legions," and also obtain a copy of the English TV Video documentary, "The Lost Legions of Varus," from the Ancient history series, which is often shown on the History Channel. Major Clunn's theories are actually supported by the commentators in the film, including Prof. Dr. Schnurbein. 
 
Naturally the people of the Detmold area where the site of Hermann's Statue was erected in the 1800's wish to retain their link with the Varusbattle, the Statue is after all a national monument, and attracts many thousands of visitors to it every year, Undoubtedly the Varus Legions did move around the upper end of the River Lippe through the Teutoburger Wald and beyond to the Summer Camp on the Weser. However, the number of Roman finds made in that area, by many hundreds of avid historians and metal detectorists alike, remain minimal in the extreme, and no site has produced anything like the proof needed to site the battle in the Detmold or lower reaches of the Teutoberger Wald. 
 
So far, contrary to some who scoff at Kalkriese at the real site, some 6,000 artefacts and coins have been recovered from the Kalkriese central site, many capable of dating to the period in questions, no Roman coins later than AD 9, some pieces even marked with names of those involved. 6,000 pieces you may ask . . . but. . . the fact is only some 5% (FIVE PERCENT) of the whole central site has actually been archaeologically excavated! 
 
And, during the last few years other burial pits and possibly pits used to incarcerate prisoners before they were tortured and put to death continue to be uncovered in the more central areas of the main field where the ambush wall was sited. (Read Tacitus). 
 
For those who scoff and doubt, and there are always Doubting Thomases, read my book, see the film, come and see the site and the ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬20.000.000 purpose built Museum and Tower and Park, then judge for yourselves. ( www.varusschlacht-kalkriese.de 
 
Note: The battlefield is not a small pocket of finds in a small area. In the Kalkriese area (the last days engagement) the battlefield stretches some 5 kilometres long by 1 kilometre wide. The next site back from there (as described by Cassius Dio) where Varus committed suicide is still to be fully investigated and excavated, but already has produced sufficient finds in the same category of those found in the Kalkriese site, also found by Major Clunn. 
 
We are also examining a third site to the southeast as part of my continuing investigation on the possible route taken by the fighting legions as they made their way NW to the northern plains and around the passes to their final demise at Kalkriese. 
 
I know this is a long post. I hope you find it worthwhile 
 
Tony Clunn (Major, retd)

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-26-2005, 11:16 AM

In answer to Tony Clunn: 
I read your book with pleasure, I visted the site and was very happy to meet you there 9albeit very briefly), but I think the developers did an extremely poor job on that museum, which I consider an absolute horror. A bucket of rust is the best object to compare it to. Politics, art and archaeology seldom work together. 
 
A note to Dan: 
I told you so on several occasions: that must have been some shoe-box! Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 1/26/05 12:16 pm

Ebusitanus · 01-26-2005, 11:28 AM

Interesting read. 
 
Btw...Your website link does not seem to work (at least for me)

01-26-2005, 02:03 PM

Ebusitanus, 
 
Thank you. Which website link does not work?

***Praefectusclassis*** · 01-26-2005, 05:22 PM

Try www.kalkriese-varusschlacht.de Greets 
 
Jasper

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-27-2005, 03:10 AM

That is a very excellent website! Of course I am by no means an expert, but it would appear to me that they do indeed have the site of the main battle! I 'll be very interested to see further archaelogical finds and developments from the site in the future. I bet there is much, much more. Too bad the website didn't have an English version as well, I would have loved to read the entire texts and commentaries from the website thoroughly! For the archaeologists of the site, as well as the author and publishers of the book, keep up the great work! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda BrittanicaEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/27/05 4:13 am

01-27-2005, 03:54 AM

Lucius, 
 
As the publisher of the revised and updated edition of Major Clunn's forthcoming work, I thank you for the kind words. We are working with him and preparing an English-language website, so stay tuned. There are amazing things transpiring, even as I write . . . 
 
tps 
www.savasbeatie.com

Daniel S Peterson · 01-28-2005, 07:46 AM

Robert, 
Unless there is some secret and enormous cache of Kalkriese artifacts delibately being withheld from both publication and display, then yes, the actual items we can class as Roman military equipment do all fit in a single shoebox, with room to spare. When they speak of "thousands" of artifacts, every tiny fragment of nail, pottery chip or bone splinter is being counted, and why not, when they are trying to justify their multi-million dollar museum investment, for the "bucket of rust" as you call it. (Actually I have handled many of the most exciting pieces when setting up the Roseheim exhibition, and they are wonderful and important finds). 
 
I never questioned the fact that these finds date to the Varus period, and in fact Tacitus mentions that these small outposts as the Kalkriese site seems to represent, were overrrun at the same time as the central Varus disaster. It is to be expected then, that like the main battlefield, the later Roman expeditions would have gathered up and reburied the scattered, weathered bones at these smaller sites as well. It is that fact which again casts doubt on Kalkriese. The bones found there certainly prove the ground conditions are suitable to preserve them, so we can expect tens of thousands of skeletons, if this were really the battlefield. 
 
Most people interested in this do not seem to comprehend how much ground space at least 20,000 men must physically occupy. Probably no region in Germany has ever been more thoroughly archaeologically investigated than the Kalkriese region after the initial finds, yet the artifacts just "peter out" a short distance from the "settlement area" (postholes, pottery, burnt furniture, etc). 
 
If a German-made earthwork played a key role in blocking/defeating the Varus Army, and was present on the main battlefield where the Romans buried the remains of their comrades, it is extremely curious that Tacitus never thought to mention it. It seems more probable that the Romans built the earthwork above their outpost once word was received that the Germans had revolted. 
 
When the actual battlefield of the Varus legions is found there will be one or more great burial mounds containings the skeletal remains of thousands of men. There will be a debris field of telltale Roman military equipment that must extend for several miles, and yes, Robert, the amount of Roman military equipment that will be found there will indeed fill far more than a single shoebox. 
 
Dan 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-28-2005, 03:08 PM

Hi Dan, 
Well, it seems clear from your postings over the last few years that you will never ever accede that Kalkriese had anything to do with the last battle of Varus. Even if they would find a 'dog-tag' with his name on it, I assume you would insist he lost that while visiting the so-called 'outpost'! 
So I won't try to convince you. 
Just a few remarks - you mention the space and the trail of finds. 
I'm amazed you don't seem to hear what all these people say, when the explain that just a tiny fraction of the site has been excavated. So how can you tell beforehand nothing will ever turn up? You treat the currently excavated items as if that wer all there was to find. Also, I have never heard from the more informed experts (and I don't count newspapers) that they would insist that all 20.000 Romans fought in this tiny space and died just there. Like you suggest they did. If I'm remebering well all that I read about this site and the sources of the battle, Kalkriese would just be a choking point where the army was ambushed and had to fight its way through. 
 
Personally, I believe the trail of finds west of Kalkriese suggests that the area before the wall represents the demise of this army as a coherent force. Parts of it fought their way through it, other parts may have been chased into the swamp or back eastwards. Either way, only a few made it back to the Rhine. 
But none say the fields of Kalkriese were the spot where 20.000 Romans ran into a German wall and perished to a man. 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

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