Chiton details

[Comerus Gallus]

I got it now! :wink:

[Johnny Shumate]

Lupus,
What proof do we have that they wore something(large t-shirt) other than the chiton..? Not that I doubt what you say..!
Thanks,
Johnny

[lupus]

Anyway... guys... as far as I can imagine, almost ALL topics in this forum, talking about RE-CREATING outfits/panoplies/weaponry for festivals.

Think about that... YOU CAN'T POSSIBLE be sure about ANYTHING, about ANY faction/nation/Age/etc., because SIMPLY you CAN'T travel through time, go back there and take a video or a snap-shot with your camera!
Even if you gather ANY POSSIBLE statue/paint/etc. from these Ages, with PERFECT details, you STILL CAN'T be able to understand COMPLETELY how they did this or that!

So... the "bottom of line" is this:

DO... as BEST as you can your re-creations, with THE MOST CHEEP, EASY & LOGICAL way you can!

The Greek tunics looked ALIKE/SIMILAR with a long... t-shirt!
USE THAT! Use a nice t-shirt, with all these fine patterns that you'll add and the proper cutting, but DON'T bother yourselves to make it... alike as it WAS THEN!
You SIMPLY CAN'T!

Another example?
The Hoplites' "Aspis"! EVEN NOW, after 2500 years (!), there is NO ONE to claim that he FIGURE OUT how they could CURVED the layers of woods and HOW they could put the bronze layer on them, WITHOUT USING A SINGLE NAIL!
So... you're in 21th century! CREATE as best as you can your "Aspis", to... LOOK ALIKE (not... BE ALIKE!), with any method you can to achieve this!

Got it?

I WOULD do that! And believe me, I'm probably the MOST FANATIC REALISTIC person you ever met! I'm in my work (illustrations) and I WOULD in creating a panoply!
But... ZEUS! With OUR methods and OUR tools...

Make them LOOKING alike and don't bother yourselves to UNDERSTAND how THESE PEOPLE did it!...

Regards...

[hoplite14gr]

Myceneans are pictured wearing something like a t-shirt.
Most classical art does not show t-shirt sleeves, but Thessalians and other north Greeks had long sleeves at least in winter.
I feel "t-shirt" is not necessarily inaccurate.
Also rich individuals from maritime city states could be wearing "exotic" items.
Kind regards

[lupus]

Thanks Stefane... You agree, more or less, to what I suggesting...

Regards.

[hoplite14gr]

Based on my last post I belive that Andy is right.
Also on buttons:
Maria Gijimbutas author of the "mother goddess" showed images of "idols" ranging from neolithic to bronze age with what seem to be buttons so the consept was not unknown.
But brooches under armor...well, they were ancients not fools!
Kind regards

[lupus]

But brooches under armor...well, they were ancients not fools

If this comment is for my comments, dear Stefane, I was trying to say "sort-off" pins or buckles... Small ones, thin ones, can be easily under an armor, no?

Anyway... you blacksmith people with your REALLY FINE re-constructions, you know better...

Regards.

[hoplite14gr]

No my firnd Romyle I do not make personal coments.
I posted that because some times many poeple-myself included underestimat the reasoning and the common sence of the ancients.
If something I posted offended anyone I apologise.

Kind regards

[caiusbeerquitius]

Does anyone have information on weaves, materials and decorations? Colours? What kond of tunic would be appropriate for a Sicilian hoplite during the Athenian war?
Help appreciated, I´m going to make my Greek Impression, finally. ^^
However, I want to start w/ the textiles, but find it diffcult to get these infos.

[nikolaos]

Fabric available to classical greeks are wool and linen.

Unlike some earlier advice here, pins are the exception as opposed to the rule (Elderkin: Buttons and their use in Greek Garments) and garments would either be sewn or buttoned closed through loops, either attached to the fabric or part of a continuous cord or band at the neck of the garment.

We're putting together a reference section for Taxeis Plataiai which will have a ton of help and pics if you can hold off for a couple of weeks.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Cole

[caiusbeerquitius]

Thanks!
Most of what you said was already in the relevant thread in here, but thanks, again. I would be mainly interested in: Was the wool z- or s- spun, how thick were the individual threads, how man threads were woven per cm on warp and weft (most of the fabrics look very light, see Aristion) what kind of colours were common for soldiers (if such a statement can be made) besides white, what kind of decorations are found on soldiers tunics? What are reasonable measurements? Aristion below again must have a very large tunic to get these folds on the lower rim.

[Kineas]

Most of what you said was already in the relevant thread in here, but thanks, again. I would be mainly interested in: Was the wool z- or s- spun, how thick were the individual threads, how man threads were woven per cm on warp and weft (most of the fabrics look very light, see Aristion) what kind of colours were common for soldiers (if such a statement can be made) besides white, what kind of decorations are found on soldiers tunics? What are reasonable measurements? Aristion below again must have a very large tunic to get these folds on the lower rim.

So...

Wool was both S and Z spun, according to what I've read in the last 24 hours, but Z-spun fabrics were more likely in Egypt, where the process was originated. To be honest, it appears to me as a novice textile researcher that 2/3s of our knowledge of classical fabrics comes from one giant find in Egypt (Hellenistic Greek location, though) which may hideously distort our knowledge of the fabrics. The fabrics found there were 92% wool, 5% wool and linen ,mixed (with Linen as the warp threads, for what that's worth) and 3% pure linen, with the balance being animal hair weaving (goat).

Linen was only S-spun in the Greek world, with Z-spinning found ONLY in Egypt, according to Diane Lee Carroll "An Etruscan Textile in Newark" American Journal of Archaeology, Vol 77 no. 3, (July 1973) pp.334-336." Dr. Carroll seems to be the world's most knowledgeable person on her subject--her PhD thesis was on "Patterned Textiles in Greek Art" and I've sent for a copy, as everyone in the field says it's the bible on the subject.

Weaving is of all kinds and conditions--16 threads to the cm is the norm on the Etruscan fabric mentioned, but the woold in Egypt vary from super-fine to fairly coarse.

I'm trying to get Ann Arbor Michigan to cough up some photos of the textiles, but white with a simple stripe in red or blue would seem to represent the average. Remember, though, that any decoration cost money, and that much of the decoration now being restored on painted statues represented both textile, and tapestry style AND embroidery.

So much to know. I'm scratching the surface, here. If you want more, tell, but we'll publish a handbook, soon!