Recreating Hoplite combat

[Kineas]

And I'd like to see other tests, as I don't believe even a little bit in othismos...hey, I'm a heretic. But I'll be delighted to help with othismos tests too. Convince me! With 100 hoplites, we'll threaten to learn things!

[PMBardunias]

And I'd like to see other tests, as I don't believe even a little bit in othismos...hey, I'm a heretic.

I'd like to see what occurs if one phalanx attempts to avoid othismos and the other pushes in. It would take either coordinated back-pedaling or some sarissa to give them something pointy to push against. I don't think you can kill your way out of othismos with spear fencing- simply too many ranks coming at you. Since back-pedaling is always slower than "fore-pedaling" this is just about the the surest way to get your close-ordered line troops routed, thus you can see why the sarissa became an attractive option. The reverse is that true othismos is impossible against light troops that simply disperse backwards as you advance.

[Kineas]

Paul--having learned my lesson on another thread, I'm going to decline combat until we all have more data points!

I'm sure that pushing is a major part of hoplite combat--but I have suspicions, shall I say? At any rate, time and experiment will tell, and I don't deny that it couldn't be just as you say. In fact, I just wrote a major "othismos" scene in a novel.

So I'm a heretic even inside my own views....

[PMBardunias]

In fact, I just wrote a major "othismos" scene in a novel.

Sell out! :wink:

I'm sure that pushing is a major part of hoplite combat--but I have suspicions, shall I say?

I'm always looking for more "suspicions", so please elaborate. I promise not even to argue, just listen.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I will listen,too. I don't promise I won't argue,though :lol: No,really,say all your suspicions. I think in the end we had a rather nice talk with Paul B about the different scenarios of every different hoplite battles,I believe in the "Othismos true nature" thread. Paul,I think you'll agree out final impression was that not one battle was identical to another,and no meter of the battle line identical to the next. So we're quite open to new suggestions.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Paul,I think you'll agree out final impression was that not one battle was identical to another,and no meter of the battle line identical to the next. So we're quite open to new suggestions.

Definitely. In the end I think much of the arguement is temporal. We are like the blind gurus assessing the elephant, with all of us focussed on the dominant tactic during different eras in the evolution of hoplite combat that is all too often seen as invariant over a long period. I can say this, whether or not a literal othismos ever existed, we know that spear fencing surely did. So any examination of the mechanics of fighting with spears in groups has to be applicable and I would defend its utility.

[nikolaos]

Cole here, sounding in a bit late, but as I see it there needs to be a number of different areas requiring consensus, and things are wandering a bit, and I'd like to summarize my thoughts on what I've seen.

We have a number of scattered groups with varying standards, cultures, and desires, and hopefully many of us come crashing (not literally together at Marathon in a few years.

In order to insure the attendees against liability we will have to have a system that covers all activities that will occur at a combined event and is acceptable to the insurance company.

So for instance, some groups do choreographed live steel, others don't, but all have to be insured against an accident involving it.

Some might even consider unchoreographed live steel (with rebated edges) all good fun (though personally I think they're daft But that activity either needs to be regulated and insurable or banned, one or the other.

Others might have some form of padded/wooden/rattan/kendo sword/what have you fighting system that they'd like to have fun with when we all get together. Its probably safe to say that there is a large enough percentage of people from various groups who would like to try their mad skills on each other, so a common set of rules to allow cross--play and corresponding insurance will be required.

Finally, experimental archaeology will bring its own risks, and need for insurance.

The various players need to come to consensus on what represents the best system (for which I'll insert my own bias and say best = safest) for each flavour.

Obviously there will be people whose degree of acceptable risk for their persons or equipment or personal philosophy on historical versimilitude may cause them to choose not to participate at a certain level, and I'm down with that... But by the same measure those who don't will have to accept that there are a bunch of people into history who like to hit each other with stuff

But all thats to a degree... I'm a firm believer that if you show up under arms you should be expected to do something armigerous for the public beyond standing around in a costume that will support the event. And that being the case, that minimum degree of participation should be agreed to as well.

Coming to consensus will inevitably be a lot of work, and documentation, and so forth, it would be a shame to have it be done for a one shot deal.

Unfortunately, that sounds an awful lot like forming an umbrella group as a standards setting body. Its worth considering at least, as the model in Rev War has allowed for both individual groups to determine their own identity while allowing them all to come together and play. Christian, is there a good place to go to look at a sample constitution of one of the governing bodies?

After all, its only ten more years until Thermopylae

Have fun!
Cole

[PMBardunias]

This is another image that makes me wonder about the T-Y being equivalent to the linothorax. Its vest-like shape fits with quilted armors commonly seen in other cultures. We only see the back, so it could have shoulder fastenings, but clearly it is not a standard T-Y. If something like this existed alongside a leather T-Y then both types are accounted for without equating them. The level of detail is so high n this vase that I doubt it is an artistic mistake.

Also, this is my favorite crest!


***OOPs- cross posted!***

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:

Second,if we re-enact Marathon,there will not be any hoplites in the opposite side. Ideally,only a wall of wicker shields that are not even held by another person but stand pinned to the ground,and behind them you could have any croud of re-enactors you want,even with no historical kit,and in fact you wouldn't have to really fight with them.You could recreate the battle having the flanks fleeing almost emediately after the wicker shield wall was thrown down while in the middle the hoplite front rankers continue to hit the "spara" that are supported from behind as to hold for some time. After the flanks have fled,the phalanx flanks will have to perform a maneuver to sarround the persian center. Now this might have been done in a rather inorderly fashion in reality,but I wouldn't suggest so in the event. To perform this maneuver at least some trainning and coordination ought to be done before the actual show.

....like Cole/Nikolaos, I'm sorry to chime in a bit late! :oops:
It should be pointed out that, unlike Herodotus' description of Plataea or Mycale, there is no mention by him of a shield-wall at Marathon. Indeed, the battle seems to have been fairly fluid. The reason for the lack of a shield-wall may be that the invasion force, being ship-borne and mostly 'marines' were all 'Takabara' ( 'spara' being of less use aboard ship??) or perhaps more likely, especially as Herodotus tells us the Persians were caught by surprise, they did not have time to form a shield-wall.
As to Marathon re-enactment, it seems to me obvious that for the public, you put on a simplified public choreographed display, with commentary over loudspeakers etc, hopefully with at least some rehearsal beforehand......and that with so many gathered and staying several days at least, 'living archaeology' experiments in drill, mock combat,'othismos' etc can take place 'back in camp', privately ,with participants therefore having the option of what they wish to participate in......

[Paullus Scipio]

This is another image that makes me wonder about the T-Y being equivalent to the linothorax. Its vest-like shape fits with quilted armors commonly seen in other cultures. We only see the back, so it could have shoulder fastenings, but clearly it is not a standard T-Y. If something like this existed alongside a leather T-Y then both types are accounted for without equating them. The level of detail is so high n this vase that I doubt it is an artistic mistake.

Also, this is my favorite crest!

....are you sure you posted this on the right thread, Paul ???? Shoudn't it be on 'linothrax v Spolas v quilted'? :lol: :lol: :lol:

This example could still be a T-and-Y, albeit a highly decorated one.....there is no sign of the 'diamond-and-dot', or other convention that would indicate quilting......

[Paralus]

The reason for the lack of a shield-wall may be that the invasion force, being ship-borne and mostly 'marines' were all 'Takabara' ( 'spara' being of less use aboard ship??) or perhaps more likely, especially as Herodotus tells us the Persians were caught by surprise, they did not have time to form a shield-wall.

The latter. This was an invasion force for Attica. It had already dealt with Chalcis. From memory, at the time of the Athenian attack, the cavalry were "away". Cavalry, one suspects, are far more useless aboard ship than spear and shield bearing infantry. Marines on horseback....a new prawn dish? The rest were infantry and likely caught a little unawares.