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+--- Thread: Recreating Hoplite combat (/showthread.php?tid=14676)
Recreating Hoplite combat - Kineas - 02-21-2009
Quite a daring thread title, I suspect.
I'm not starting it to promulgate answers but to start looking for some consensus. I'm ready to host an event in North America (that'll be 2010) and I think all the hoplite impressions need to start thinking about Marathon, and one of the basic requirements will be the ability to safely, accurately and yet dramatically recreate hand to hand combat (and possibly archery.) The decision to model combat will shape approaches in kit and training as well as insurance and site selection.
One of the options is to declare that we will NOT model combat. I find this a poor choice--first, from the point of view of the expectation of attendees; second, from the perspective of potential recruits; third, because quite a few academics (not to mention folks on RAT!) are interested in watching a recreation of hoplite combat.
That said, after a summer of low-level hoplite fighting (2 on two and sometimes 4 on 4), I know that it will require time and consensus to decide what we're doing.
In addition, I suspect we'll end up with levels of combat, so that, for instance:
Two fully armed and armoured hoplites in their panoply with the requisite martial training (say, ten years each) and some stage-fighting experience might put on a live steel "duel" for the public.
Two fully armoured hoplites with closed face helmets (Corinthians) and padded weapons might choose to fight--quite fast and hard--if they were confident in their equipment.
But... neither of those fairly daring solutions has anything to do with hundreds of reenactors from all over the world trying to organize a phalanx fight. The problem of massed melee presents issues of safety unmatched in other combat sports.
To sum up the problem--whatever we choose, it needs to be something that we can train and qualify a stranger at in under a day.
We have to be able to use the armour and equipment that represents the average of the hobby. No combat system that requires massive re-equipping stands a chance of making it.
we have to be able to convince event organizers and insurers that what we're doing is SO safe that they can trust us to do it without further penalty...
I accept that all of these suggested assumptions can be challenged. Now I'll duck and wait to see what you folks have come up with.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Magnus - 02-22-2009
Have you checked out needlefelt combat Christian?
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - ouragos - 02-22-2009
I think it is fair to say that differing groups take differing perspectives on a number of things and on occasion, enthusiasm can outweigh common sense.
To stage 'combat' you need to consider not just weapons but also the impact it will have on your, not inexpensive, kit. If I am happy to have my shield bent and cracked I might well apply my assault with some gusto - if my opponent feels differently you will have an instant reaction when the two close. An issues of particular concern if aspects of inter-group rivalry exists (even on a friendly basis).
Next, all of our weapons are sharps - so other than our own, staged and well practiced activities (which carry their own risks) we would never take the field with non-members to do the same... let alone fight (which you would(should) never do with sharps anyway). So there is a cost of re-equipping.
I know of one group who is really enthusiastic about putting on contact activities and, whilst a good bunch of people, the discipline required to do this safetly is, perhaps, not as rigorous as it might be... and they do have some sharps.
There is a phrase 'an accident waiting to happen' which can be applied here.
Next, insurance. Groups will have their own insurance policies and they will cover what they have set themselves up to do. Display is one thing, mock combat another and the costs vary accordingly. What nobody wants is for something to happen and adequate cover not to exist.
Then - what about the odds and sods, inividuals who come along to join in?
In essence, whilst most (all?) would welcome the opportunity for a massive display of 'combat-esque' activities, this could not 'just happen', you need discipline and order. Working with your own people you have a sense of understanding and control. Working with 'others' you have no concept.
The Sealed Knot/ECWS in the UK evolved from the contact fighting of the 1970's into the much more styalised fighting style of today. I was there in the 70's and loved every minute of it, but there was a regular casualty rate and kit was very cheap. The current style has lost none of the spectacular for the crowds and it is elements of this that we have drawn into our displays to help minimise the possibility of accident.
Archery - we actually do use that AGAINST the hoplites, but we use flus' with red heads and manage with distance, targeting (as far as you can with a flu), fire discipline AND target discipline. Again, this has risks and we do have the occasional close shave, but target discipline (how the individual target hoplite has to act under fire) has avoided anything remotely threatening.... once we worked out what the target had to actually do!!!!
Let's forget, for now, the arrow that managed to get under the rim into a groin, the arrow that gave a nice bruise to someones cheek and archers suddenly deciding to have a competition as to how many arrows they could loose in the given timeframe. We learnt the hard way but understand how excitement can get in the way.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Kineas - 02-22-2009
So your view, Andy, is that it should not be done?
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - ouragos - 02-22-2009
My view is that in order to do this there has to be common weapon and training ethos amongst participants, just as you have in medieval or viking etc societies. Even with those, there are some groups that would not 'fight' with other due to differences in capability levels. The same is true of the roman groups.
At this particular moment in time, greek reenating is still pretty much in its infancy and there are clear differences between how groups equip and act, not just in terms of timescale they represent but also in terms of the definitions of accuracy and interpretations of what reenacting actually means. I think that there are other options to full contact demonstration (that are essentially imperceptable to crowds) and believe that is a better option to explore.
I expect though that there are some that might feel I am being a little unsupportive but having heard of a sword (proper one that is) being THROWN during a rather enthusiastic encounter with one group I am, you will appreciate, anxious for the safety of my members.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Kineas - 02-22-2009
Sorry this is so long!
Andy, you have me all wrong--I run a 500 person reenactment organization in Canada called the Northern Brigade and my LIFE seems to revolve around insurance!
It is these very issues that brought me to this point. We're making equipment at the speed of --well, the speed of a god shop class. we have bodies. we have an event schedule, although curiously, no one has yet mentioned insurance...
and I suspect I'm going to be the annoying git on that subject.But coming from the gunpowder eras, we're used to the "team sport" display where we can show our stuff--good drill, good tactics, good physical conditioning.... or not...
Further, as I talk to people about Marathon, i know what the media wants--a battle.
Magnus, I went and read the needefelt thread. Souinds great--and we'll try it with yoiur group in June. BUT...
As Andy said, needelfet won't help the odds and sods, because you can't make a spear or a sword in ten minutes in Greece in 2011.
Andy, we have some very experienced full contact fighters--and that is NOT what we think will work.
How about (drumroll) a simple light dory (bamboo pole) with a safed head (nerf ball or equivalent, plastic cap to prevent penetration, tape) and where the legal target is ONLY the opponent's shield. Sure--someone may slip up. But if you are wearing ful hoplite panoply, and if the Corinthian's are int he front rank, and if the spear's max weight in measured in ounces... yiu have at least reduced the possibility of accident to a manageable risk.
Remember-you can only hit your opponent's shield.
If the officers have a script, and if the crowd in 100 feet away, it should look very real indeed.
And if folks don't loike that, let's come up with another. I used "simulation" in my initial post--I meant it. I've done lots of whacking--I don't need ot do another round unless it's safe and easy.
As to damaging kit--anything that wears my kit like real kit is better. If my shield buckles, well, as Paul Bardunias said, I'll take photos and write an article!
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - ouragos - 02-22-2009
I am not sure there was anything for me to get wrong? I have been on a field with 5000 people bashing away at each other so I do understand scale and also where you are coming from.
Media wants a 'battle' eh - and quite how do they define that word? Hitting each other with stick with bits of foam on the end sounds to me more like larp than reenactment. Are we not talking spectacle and at 100 metres there are ways of providing that without actually having to include high levels of contact activity. Indeed there are ways of providing that at a few metres.
Oh, and you might be happy to have the marks of use on your kit, but I suggest you are not universal in that - many in reenactment scrimp and save for each bit and with the investment in time, effort and cost into the aspis alone, I can think of a few people who would not want to give someone else the chance to spoil the hard work.
...negative, no I don't think so and please don't read it in this way. I think my major worry is discipline and managing expectations if you bring differing groups on a field for a joint display. Again, another example relayed by one of my colleagues at someone-elses event - he found the press thrilling, the sudden appearance of a spear though (tiped) being thrown across the phalanx less so.
You are recruiting from within experienced reenactors, we have a mix and other groups have people who have started in this era and have no basis of appreciating the training and practice and scripting that can go behind what might look like a frantic melee on a field. Perhaps a series of joint activities can only do us all a greater good? I have been on a field when serious injuries have taken place - I recall one poor individual being severely injured by the blast from a cannon one day and then, amazingly, the following day being ordered to march my men across the front of the same battery whilst they were loading! Needless to say we had words over it and we stood firm - but that was in the 1970's and those lessons have been learnt.
Using an officer system and good choreography / scripting will allow for contact, where that experience exists; non-contact where it is questionnable and spectacle throughout.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Phalanx300 - 02-22-2009
I would suggest to use as Kineas has said a wooden stick with something replacing the point, something non lethal. I may sound like Larp but its better then some real dead on the battlefield I suppose :mrgreen: .
And I saw this Hoplite fight where they would stand at a meter of eachother and just were poking eachother with sticks, to accurately represent Hoplite warfare the two sides should stand shield to shield with eachother.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - hoplite14gr - 02-22-2009
Some thoughts from hard won experience:
2 hoplites Duel: (probably as described bt Homer)
Put beotian shields and hand and foot guards (Yes early Archaic hoplites were catafract!) but still you runs risk of accident even with bland weapons. So javelines and swords must by from some "foamy" soft material.
Group of hoplites: (phalanx battle)
Assuming you get the "foamy" weapons 2 groups can come close and start poking at each other.
Othismos (watch out potential mess!)
We decided to test othismos two years ago. No dorata were issued; the idea was to have to groups come close enough to touch opnents shield and then shove and push him. 2 triads 6 vs 6 and the only discomfort was from the unarmored men in the central stichoi.
Then we added 3 more people to one group to try the Theban falanx effect. Wow!
last guy in the central stichos of the weaker formation went on his back with his leading man on top.
somebody stepped on the ankle of some fallen guy and we were luck that we did not have serious injury.
conclusion: realistic recreation of othismos can cause bruises and even broken limps or even suffocation problems.
We are still trying to figure out a safe way to demonstrate othismos.
Some choreografed moves might be OK but I advise against group combat yet
Just my thoughts
Kind regards
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Kineas - 02-22-2009
Quote:Oh, and you might be happy to have the marks of use on your kit, but I suggest you are not universal in that - many in reenactment scrimp and save for each bit and with the investment in time, effort and cost into the aspis alone, I can think of a few people who would not want to give someone else the chance to spoil the hard work.
But--I don't understand this.
Nothing ever looks new. No aspis looked new a day after it was painted. They repainted them all the time (at least, that's my understanding.) Those nicks are badges of pride.
I fear that when you see our Plataean's at Marathon you'll find us dull, dented, and dirty.
Nicks and bashes help kit look as if the wearer is a soldier. Surely this is a matter of informing a new recruit "this will get bashed about, and that's GOOD." Nothing is spoiled. And if you make things well--from the beginning--with the idea that they'll be used hard, they last.
Is this a North American thing? Surely not--I'm in a conversation on another thread with John Conyard in the UK about winter gear and boots for riding, and on another thread with guys in Germany about trekking.
At any rate--I started this thread looking for consensus. I see there's lots of consensus building ahead! And I agree, Andy, that we need to have some events together and start ironing these things out.
Is there a Greek schedule out there? I find the "events" thread daunting in that most of it is "Roman." I like Romans--in fact, our first event will be with Magnus's Romans--but I wonder that there isn't an event list on this forum for Greeks. Jasper? Could we start our own event heading?
My suspicion is that it will take time to start most hoplites (outside the organized groups in the UK, Australia, and Spain and Greece) thinking of themselves as "belonging to a hobby" with shared interests and shared insurance requirements. Perhaps we should start there. but we have to start. 2011 is two years away and there is a great deal to be done!
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - ouragos - 02-22-2009
Quote:But--I don't understand this.
I take it you are kidding? Some of the shields will have cost the owners £400-£500, even the new ones we have sourced from India at around £200 represent a significant investment for some and the thought of them being damaged is a deterrant - indeed I had this very conversation with a member last night.
They get plenty of dents, scrapes and marks from eventing and quickly look 'used', but
Mine - well I would hapilly challenge you to break it (it is one of the original wulf shields and I could park my armoured car on it and am pretty certain it would survive) - but put me up against one of the fibre shields out there, or even the Indian ones and I could predict the outcome if they closed at any speed.
You have built yours to take a bashing, not all are the same. Pretty much like a game of conkers.... :lol: :lol:
Back to the point I was trying to make about the differences in groups etc. Nothing insurmountable, but just needs planning that's all.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Magnus - 02-22-2009
You can make most of the equipment fairly quickly Christian, including spares and back ups. Our javelins are constructed of a pvc shaft, which fits inside a plastic golf tube. On the "pointy end" we use a tennis ball duct taped to it. You could do something very similar as you suggested for your greak spears.
We'll talk more in June, and I'll be able to show you all of the needlefelt stuff we have.
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Mythos_Ruler - 02-22-2009
I suggest we drop all this "simulated combat" nonsense and have a real othismos, with real weapons and equipment. North America vs. Europe for the bloody championship. One hell of a way to die, eh gents?
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - hoplite14gr - 02-22-2009
Pardon my ignorance but I fail to see the humor of this....
Kind regards
Re: Recreating Hoplite combat - Hoplite480 - 02-23-2009
I think that one of the main problems is that this era of the hobby is so new that we DONT have access to the suppliers to get the quality that we need in order to authentically replicate the battles right now. Im not saying it wont be that way in the future, but right now its just not going to happen across the board IMHO.
As for the shield- Christian, I understand that you have access to someone here in the states who makes quality shields. Not everyone else is so lucky. Ive been trying to get an authentic aspis for over three years now, and the only ones I have found are either too damn expensive (im sorry, I cant afford $800 for an aspis), inauthentic, or simply unaccessable.
So does that mean that im going to be a bit careful with my authentic shield once I finally get one? youbetchya. I'm the kind of person who believes wholeheartedly in beating the living crap out of my equipment, but everything before this point was fairly easy to find and obtain. It really didnt matter if I completely blew out the knee of my trousers taking a hit at Perryville or had a horse rip the top off on one of my cartridge pouches at a WWII event (OK, that one kinda pissed me off, they were original) because I could either fix it or replace it easily.
An aspis is a completely different matter. Just like I wouldnt take my original 38 dated all matching K98 into a tactical where it could get banged up and hurt, im not going to take my only authentic aspis into a situation where it could be broken. Roughed up- sure, no problem, but broken... heck no. Not unless I know I have a reliable source to replace it for a few hundred dollars. Find THAT and ill be right there in the front with everyone else. Until that point, Ill be content to stay in the back rank.
Does that help you to understand? unfortunately not everyone has access to the resources you have. I think its great you have 20 folks working on one thing. It makes it much easier to get stuff done. But not everyone has that. Theres a lot of loners out there like myself who dont have the resources and have to make everything singularly and fight to try and make things work, and I cherish every dern piece of equipment I make or get thats authentic because its simply not availible YET. Hopefully in the future it will change.
As for combat- I think it would be a great idea, and I agree with what has been said. I think it can be done, but we have to be very careful. Ive done simulated hand to hand before, and what I have found is that its got to be VERY heavily scripted and controlled to work, and more importantly everyones got to be on the same page, commanders, men, everyone or else it will get out of control. The problem is that when you get close like that the adrenaline starts running and you need to have complete control or else it gets out of hand. I remember doing a CW event where the commanders thought it would be a *great* idea to have the Yankees charge us and do hand to hand. Only thing was they didnt let us know it was happening. That didnt turn out too well. Ive seen two kids (19/20ish) throw down their rifles and get into a bona fide fistfight in the middle of the field because the adrenaline was running too high. I saw a guy literally buttstroke someone else in the face with his rifle because it was an original and the other guy had decided to do a rifle lock with him, even with him yelling at us not to (this was during unscripted hand to hand). I know a guy who got second and third degree burns on his hands because a German thought it would be a great idea to rush his position with a Thompson hed burned a few hundred rounds through. As for cannons... I lost 40% of my hearing at BIllie creek because a cannon battery that was supposed to be 'dead' decided to reactivate and fire off a shot about 5 of us who had taken hits within the 'safety zone' because we were told it was dead. True, the above examples are more of how you SHOULDNT act during close quarters combat, but youre going to get those kinds of folks in any hobby, and you have to plan for it. When you get into the thick of it and the adrenaline starts running, even normal, responsible, safety minded individuals can do stupid stuff.
Im not saying there shouldnt be recreated combat, as stated earlier, I think it would be a great idea, but I think everyone needs to be highly trained and more importantly on the same page before it is even attempted. I like the idea of light spears. Has anyone tried forming spear heads out of foam or some other product? I know ive seen a few of those in other venues and they look ok from a distance and I think they would work well.
As for aiming for the shield- I think its a great idea, but I dont know if it is feasible for doing close quarters. If youre standing 6 feet away poking each other, sure, but it you are able to develop a system to do Othismos, where the shields are actually touching (push or no push) I think it will be too close to aim for a shield. I think the idea of a singular point to hit is great, but something else would have to be developed for that particular demonstration.
As for dirt- Please correct me if I am wrong, and this may be for a different thread, but from the accounts I have read the 'campaign' impression isnt completely authentic. I can see things being slightly worn and used, but not completely filthey. The concept of campaigning was still fairly far away and things were usually resolved in a battle or two. I can see there being 'marching dirt' and use on hoplite equipment, but I dont see it being filthy. True, aspises, helmets and dorys were tools, but I cant see them being unkempt. At least in my experience, when it comes to fighting, your weapon is your lifeblood. having a properly functioning weapon is the difference between life and death, so youre going to keep it clean. I know ive done campaign events where I was covered from head to toe in mud, but you could still just about eat off of my rifle because every single time we stopped I would clean it to make sure it stayed in proper firing condition, partially because if I didnt the Sgt would be on my butt, but also because I wanted it to work when the time came to use it. I cant see it being much different back then. I know personally I would keep my armor in good condition, simply because it could save my life. Can it show use and some wear? sure, but I dont think it should be filthy. But thats just me.
Just my .02, take it as you will.