Centurio helmet crests or crests in general

[Doc]

Has anyone attempted to make a centurio crest or any crest in general using horse hair either natural color or dyed?

I already have a red feather crest but I would like to make a horse hair one myself. I looked through the Legio XX tutorial and I think that it may be sufficient as far as instructions are concerned.

I know that on many frescoes the main color for a crest is red or white. Is there any pictoral evidence that blue could have been used? Would a dark blue be a feasible or "accurate" color for a legionary centurio. The reason I ask is because blue is usually affiliated with the navy.

Speaking of colors, is it difficult to dye horse hair. It seems straight foward on the Legio XX site. However, when I was shopping around for horse hair, I was told that it is difficult to dye.

Also aside from the vendors on the Legio XX website, are there other vendors that sell white horse hair at a reasonable price. One vendor wanted $100 for 8 oz of white hair. If I have to take into consideration the wood I need to purchase, the dye, the hair, brushes etc...... I might as well have someone make it-no?


Any help or suggestions are appreciated

[Theodosius the Great]

Hello Doc,

I recently dyed a tail of horse hair using the stove and pot method. It was not difficult for me
at all. Just keep stiring until you have the shade of color you want. I used powdered Rit dye which
also comes in liquid form.

As for buying undyed horse hair, it's very cheap ! Look for it on eBay under the "Crafts" section.
You can buy enough for as little as $10, $15, or $20 (USD).

I haven't made a horse hair crest but if I wanted one I would certainly make it myself. It isn't that difficult and it's cheaper. But I did buy two horse hair crests from Lawrensnest for a great price. You should check with them to see if they can get you one. They got two for me in red and undyed.

Good luck !

~Theo

[Doc]

Theo,

Thanks for the encouragment. I will definitely try it myself now that I here at least one person not having trouble.

I will use Royal Blue Rit Dye. But before I do, I would like to hear some opinions on using blue for a legionary centurio crest. Otherwise, its back to red.

[Magnus]

Given the scant evidence, I don't see why not...just like centurions could have worn segmentatas. Here is a pic of the crest I did for my centurion crest:



I did a greek theme on the box. I almost did it red and blue, and painted the squares blue and red as well.

I dyed mine also using RIT dye. What I did was bought two tin foil roasting dishes...long enough to hold 12" long horsehair. The dishes were about 2.5 inches deep, and maybe 8 - 10 inches wide. Pick one to be the "inner one". Poke a pile of holes in the bottom of it.

Heat your dye, mix it with a bit of hot water. Put the horsehair in the "inner" pan, set aside. Fill the bottom or outer pan with your dye. Now, gently place the inner pan into the outer pan. The holes will allow the dye to seep into the inner pan and dye the horse hair.

I let mine sit for like 6 hours. Once you are ready to extract the horsehair, just life the inner pan, and because of the holes, it will all drain out into the bottom pan, and there you are! Spread the hair onto some towels that you don't like to dry a bit better.

Tips:

- use a metal spoon or something to gently move the horsehair around so the dye gets at it all. (wooden spoons will dye).
- Keep the water hot, just a bit less than boiling. I put the pans on the stove elements and would turn the stove onto minimum for a few minutes. I did this for about a half an hour, then just let it sit for the other 5.5 hrs.

PS - the "black" hair in my crest was actually tan, that i dyed black because I didn't have any.

[Doc]

Matt,

Thanks for the tips. I was thinking of the greek pattern like yours (red and blue checkers) only that I will make the crest just blue.

I was also thinking instead of the checkers to put gorgon faces, lion faces.......basically like phalerae.

I was also thinking of maybe putting scuta blazon elements on the crest box i.e. laurel wreath, thunderbolts?

[Peroni]

Speaking of colors, is it difficult to dye horse hair. It seems straight foward on the Legio XX site. However, when I was shopping around for horse hair, I was told that it is difficult to dye.

I would second the use of Rit Dyes for white/off white hair. We source our hair from instrument bow making suppliers. The finer the quality of hair, the better the dying is. One pack of dye for each 500g of hair seems to work really well. The RIT "Scarlet" is the best red for horsehair. It only takes 20 -30 minutes in hot water.

If you are using hair which is 'off the flesh', then I would avise washing it before dying takes place.

The hair will dry with a natural reversion to a slightly kinked appearance. This can be steamed out.

[Doc]

Thanks all for the replies. They really help.

Now, to purchase some horse hair.

[Matthew Amt]

Good advice all around, but I particularly like your double dyeing pan, Magnus! Very clever.

Just to clarify, there are not "many" color depictions of crests, only a few (frescoes and mosaics). But yes, red and white are what are shown. There is also a literary reference to a cavalryman with a yellow crest. There are no indications of Romans using striped or multi-colored crests, though the Greeks certainly used them in the Late Archaic/Early Classical era (i.e., long before the Roman Principate).

Lots of people say how hard it is to dye horsehair, but that seems to stem from those who only use natural dyes. It works fine with modern RIT dye. It may also be entirely possible with ancient dyes, I just don't know what people have tried. There are references in Homer to purple horsehair crests (as well as white and black), but of course it doesn't say *how* purple, or what dye was used, or if that's just a poetic term for "black", etc. Maybe Tyrian purple shellfish dye works great on horsehair, couldn't tell ya! BIG bucks...

However you dye your hair, remember to give it a good (careful) rinse with cold water afterwards. Then dry it.

Good luck!

Matthew

[rusty myers]

crazy crow trading post has natural and pre-dyed horse hair in up to 18" lengths. Also good pricing on odd and ends we Romans use.

www.crazycrow.com

[Doc]

Rusty,

Thanks for the tip. I will take at look at their inventory.


Matt,

So are you suggesting I go with red or white since blue is not seen, ever?

[Matthew Amt]

Matt,

So are you suggesting I go with red or white since blue is not seen, ever?

That would be my advice. Like a broken record, "Stick with the evidence..." Even a literary reference from around your chosen era would be enough, but I don't think there is one. The closest we have it Vegetius, who says something about tunic, shield, and crest color should all match, and vary according to unit. But of course we don't know where he gets this idea, or if he's making it up.

Mind you, I don't think blue is impossible, I just don't like to speculate when there are options with evidence behind them. I'm not even sure about the usual affiliation of blue with naval forces--I think that mostly comes from a later reference, but Jasper and the other navy guys will know more.

Vale,

Matthew

[Peroni]

The closest we have it Vegetius

There is also a reference to yellow cresting (cavalry admittedly) in Arrian's 'Ars Tactica'

Crazy Crow.. $184.00 per lb???? hock: hock:

[Theodosius the Great]

Doc,

About Roman crest colors :

This is a reach but there is this fresco from Nero's 'Golden House' which shows an
unusual looking soldier wearing a bronze helmet with a greenish-looking crest.
It probably doesn't reflect contemporary armor and fashion but it may indicate
green was known to be used in Hellenistic times. :mrgreen:

OTOH, weren't blades of grass also used for making a crest ?
I remember reading about such an archaeological find (in Britain ?)

Yes, see this thread on Crest Colors.

~Theo

[Magnus]

I wonder if the "yellow" crest was the natural horse hair colour or if they actually dyed it?

[Graham Sumner]

Just to clarify, there are not "many" color depictions of crests, only a few (frescoes and mosaics). But yes, red and white are what are shown. There is also a literary reference to a cavalryman with a yellow crest. There are no indications of Romans using striped or multi-colored crests, though the Greeks certainly used them in the Late Archaic/Early Classical era (i.e., long before the Roman Principate).

I would certainly agree with Matt on this. I always feel if you are doing displays in public if they ask what you have based your reconstructions on that it is better to say that you have used such and such a reference or source, rather than admit you have made it up or just guessed!

Matt,

So are you suggesting I go with red or white since blue is not seen, ever?

That would be my advice. Like a broken record, "Stick with the evidence..." Even a literary reference from around your chosen era would be enough, but I don't think there is one.

Again good advice from Matt.

Mind you, I don't think blue is impossible, I just don't like to speculate when there are options with evidence behind them. I'm not even sure about the usual affiliation of blue with naval forces--I think that mostly comes from a later reference, but Jasper and the other navy guys will know more.

There is however more than just the one quote from Vegetius to link blue with the navy. This goes way back to the Republic. It is amazing that the evidence we have for clothing colours is quite consistent even over almost a thousand years and before anyone asks what colour blue did Vegetius mean when he said it was the same colour as the sea, well he adds that it was Venetian blue which is the same colour as the blue circus faction. So look at what a blue charioteer wears.

About Roman crest colors :

This is a reach but there is this fresco from Nero's 'Golden House' which shows an
unusual looking soldier wearing a bronze helmet with a greenish-looking crest.
It probably doesn't reflect contemporary armor and fashion but it may indicate
green was known to be used in Hellenistic times.

This piece of evidence might be seen as something of an oddity but there is in fact another. A stone sculpture clearly showing a Roman soldier in lorica segmentata with a corinthian helmet. Like lots of evidence, it has simply been lying around out there for years overlooked. It will be published very soon in 'Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier' by Raffaele D'Anmato and yours truly. Sadly no colour surviving in that case but it might indicate the Guards really did wear a mixture of gear.

OTOH, weren't blades of grass also used for making a crest ?
I remember reading about such an archaeological find (in Britain ?)

I think you might be thinking of the mosshair 'crest', from Vindolanda. Could be a fly whisk in reality, as it would work really well as that and you need them at Vindolanda as anyone who has been there will tell you! But hey you never know it could have been used as a crest.

There is also a reference to yellow cresting (cavalry admittedly) in Arrian's 'Ars Tactica'

I wonder if the "yellow" crest was the natural horse hair colour or if they actually dyed it?

According to D'Amato the translation works better if it is a blonde rather than a yellow which suggests to me it is simply natural undyed horse hair. Blondes have more fun, as we all know!

Graham.