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Crests made from Feathers only?
#1
I've just encounter with interesting debate considering if classical imperial army only used crests made from feathers or whether they use horse hair as well.

It is truth that great amount of art of this period(from that what is preserved to us of course) seems to suggest feathers might be at least dominant form of crest decoration but I Am highly sceptical to possibility horse hair form for centurions and other soldiers helmets was not used at all in this period.

So what do you think about it?
There's hardly any better place where to ask on this especially if horse hair is used quite commonly in reenactment of classical Imperial army or at least that's how it seems to me.
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#2
I think that there is plenty of evidence of feather crests in earlier Italian periods, but many of the early breeds of horse and pony had erect manes - people of any culture seeing these archetypal crests on a daily basis would be inclined to make use of them.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#3
Well...I was hoping for more enthusiastic response.Seems to me relatively important detail for reconstructions and Reenactment.
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#4
There is possibly a practical reason to use feathers rather than horsehair for crests, water resistance. Feathers shed water better than hair, especially hair compressed into a crest-box and standing upright. The movement of Roman troops into the wetter regions of Europe may have favoured the use of feather crests.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#5
I dont remember datation and name of this artwork but it is from imperial era or not?


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#6
Hello Pavel

While most Imperial based groups probably have members with horsehair crests if asked what this is is based on the answer may well be a shrug of the shoulders which possibly explains the lack of immediate response to your question.

Some time ago I was asked this same question, or rather, was there any evidence for horse hair crests in the Imperial period? Confident I knew where I would find several examples I set out to look at pictures of sculptures.

The answer was not as straightforward as I thought. Most of the crest examples I had believed were horsehair could be interpreted either way. Several of the other well known 'horsehair' crests like those on the column of Marcus Aurelius on closer inspection turned out to have rendering representing feathers, while others appeared to be a combination of feather crests with horsehair tails.

The best I came up with was the example of the Centurion T. Calidius Severus which fell into the 'either way' category, someone on the Ephesus ivory and the helmet shaped brooch which appears in the second edition of my trusty 'Roman Military Equipment' by Bishop and Coulston. The example you have shown may well be another but it also highlights the problem for most of us. We are seeing it second hand and in rather a poor quality image. As I discovered even with a few better quality images the results were not as expected.

Of course this is the result of one person's search through the limited published examples they had at their disposal.

Perhaps then this is a quest ideally suited one would think for RAT members to find out.

So here is a challenge. Can anyone therefore post a picture of an Imperial period crest which is clearly entirely of horsehair or the best a Roman sculptor or painter could render to look like horsehair?

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#7
Looks Late Republican, stylistically. There are a number of falling horsehair crests attached to a variety of helmet types on the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus.
Martin

Fac me cocleario vomere!
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#8
Quote:I dont remember datation and name of this artwork

That's from the tombstone of Flavius Mikkalus. Late 1st / early 2nd century (AD).
Nathan Ross
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#9
EDIT: Image Didn't work, will try again.

Not sure what it's from, but Joe Balmos was the one who posted it on another forum. He can tell more probably.
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#10
As a personal aside, i find horse hair more amenable to rough treatment, perhaps feathers were worn with dress uniform? Just a thought
martin ward
vicuscenturion

carpe diem[/quote]
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#11
I think the only surviving crest is made from hair moss. It is on display in the Vindolanda Museum.
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-mi...-wall.html
Andreas Strassmeir
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#12
I thought for a long time at many examples horsehair are shown but when I made closer inspection I discovered to my surprise that many are rather made of feathers or at least contains details which suggests feathers.

Good example are soldiers on the Column of Antoninus Pius-clear horse hair crests as it seemed to me at the first sight but after looking on really high resolution details of those crests...

Still it seems to me very unlikely Horse hair form used so much during Republic and also in late Antiquity would be totally absent in period between.


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#13
And of course we have at least some artwork definitely showing horse hair crests...but unfortunately it depicts rather mythological scenes and some are certainly duplicates of older pre imperial Greek artworks like statue from Hadrian's villa or many frescoes from Pompeii:


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#14
We can also see interesting comparison from Pompeii-same scene(maybe also same artist)but while on the first version horse hairs seems clearly shown the second version maybe shows feathered crest:


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#15
Arch of Orange evidently shows some Roman soldiers with horse hair crests but problem is this arch is from the opening years of the Empire(constructed during reign of Augustus) so this might be just one of the last occurrences of "Republican" horse hair crest.


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