Battle of Teutoburg Forest in 9AD question

[marka]

the site is fairly similar to the later dunnichen site in scotland where the picts fought the northumbrians.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I still find it strange that people find it hard to accept the interpretation of the find spread as the result of a large clash, whether it was the final one or the middle of the events or whatever...it still looks to be a major and possibly decisive stage of the battle, a large battle where the majority of the finds are, as if the center has been smashed and routes, then the wings being folded up from the center, the trail of finds showing where they have been cut down! :?:

Seempuls, peepuls! :wink:

[geala]

...
This is IMO a good idea for Kalkriese. Especially in the light of the sword sheath mouthpice with the inscription "LPA" hinting to legio prima augusta which was operating in the events descibed above in 16 CE. Also the relevant Lugdunum Altar series have been redated to 13/14 CE meanwhile. In Kalkriese sling bullets were found, the text above is the only place where Tacitus descibes their use in Germania. And there´s more to it. I think it is really worth considering.

Hello Christian,

this creates many problems of its own imho. I would not like to discuss the coins, you know that it is still strongly debated and the arguments of the "no-new-money-in Germania-after-Lugdunum I-faction" are not so much better than those of the pro-Kalkriese guys. I know nearly nothing about coins and find them rather boring, my fault. :wink: Let's take the coins aside, I don't need them for a pro-Kalkriese-Varus argument.

My main concern is, what battle could Kalkriese-Niewedde be instead of Clades Variana?

Caecinas near defeat at the pontes longae came to mind, but that would not fit with Tacitus description of the Roman deployment prior to the visit of the Varus battlefield. Caecina was attacked after he had returned to the Roman starting point and that was between the rivers Ems and Lippe. Caecina was also only a near defeat and he took his wounded soldiers with him. The side of Kalkriese fits however better with a Roman desaster (see below).
Or the battle at the Angrivarian wall? Why was the wall faced to the north and from where did the (huge) Roman army attack? From the swamp in the north?
And why should such a -rather short- wall, which was more or less an ad hoc construction (even if relatively well constructed), serve as the border between Cheruski and Angrivarii?
Why was the area splattered with small Roman military pieces and why where in some places many more small pieces found? This is best interpreted as a typical finding structure for a defeated army with plundering afterwards and temporary depots of the bounty. So there is good reason to presume that it was the place of a Roman defeat, not a victory. If the Romans were victorious why were many pieces found that don't belong to fighting units and should not have been lost in case of victory?

How would you explain the skeletal findings? How the mass graves? It is proven that the human and animal bones remained on the top of earth for some years (2 to 10 allegedly) and were buried thereafter. Did you think the Germans buried the bones of their warriors after such a long time, in mass graves together with animal bones? Or did the Romans come back after 18 AD to bury the remains of their dead? Highly unlikely. The findings would however fit very well with the Varus battle and the visiting of the battlefield and burying of the deads bones by Germanicus 7 years later. (edit: it's 6 years later, not 7)

If the battly took place after 10 AD, how would you explain the luxury articles that were found at Kalkriese? How the jewels which must have belonged to women? Sueton (?) tells us that Tiberius, when he took command in 10 AD, expressly forbade non-military articles in the baggage and also that women accompanied the army. BTW one of the human bones laying in a mass grave was identified as belonging to a woman. I find it unlikely that the mass graves were Germanic burials (so that the woman was Germanic), so for me it is an additional hint that Kalkriese took place before 10 AD.

The sword sheath part with the possible inscription "lpa" (which could be legio prima augusta) is a problem but not a proof that Kalkriese belongs to Germanicus war. Firstly the reading of the grafity (in the second row of the inscription) seems to be very difficult and prone to misinterpretation. If it is rightly set as lpa (I have to trust the expert): A legio prima was not with Varus but with Germanicus. But the soldier could have served in the legio prima several years ago and then changed the legion. That seems not to have happened so seldomly. Because he had bought the sword (for 60 denarii) he took it with him. Or he was part of a vexillatio. I have read recently that especially in the early years of the principate vexillationes were very common and many armies consisted of a patchwork of units from several legions. That was new for me and I'm not an expert for Roman military, others must comment this. Legio prima or parts of it could have been one of the two legions of Asprenas in upper Germania, so parts could also be with the supreme commander, Varus.

Perhaps, if not the Varus battle and not one of Germanicus battles, Kalkriese may belong to an unknown fight? But given the sheer mass of findings, the evidence for Roman core troops (several grafities of cohors I) and special personal (medics), it should have been a major clash, about which the ancient sources told us nothing? Unlikely too in my opinion.

Of course that all is no proof for Kalkriese as the battlefield of Varus. We will never know it for sure. But for me it is -with all care and uncertanties taken- still the best explanation.

Edit: wrong year and some typos

[Paullus Scipio]

Geala/Wolfgang wrote:

Of course all is no proof for Kalkriese as the battlefield of Varus. We will never know it for sure. But for me it is -with all care and uncertanties taken- still the best explanation.Wolfgang Zeiler
geala

....initially, I too was very skeptical - that it was a little "too good to be true"; and I thought that the finds best fitted a later battle, perhaps of Tiberius but even more likely one of Germanicus' campaigns - there were so many campaigns across the Rhine into Germania in this era. However, as more and more is learnt, like Wolfgang, I would agree that that the "Varus Schlact" is the most likely explanation, though as Wolfgang rightfully points out, we cannot be absolutely certain on present evidence. Perhaps any anomalies should be 'reversed' i.e. reconsidered on the basis that our present assumptions may be wrong , and that we should re-assess what is 'known' on the basis that Kalkriese is indeed part of the "Varus Schlact".......

[Vincula]

"Varus Schlact"....... "Varus Schlact"....... "Varus Schlact".......

Varusschlacht.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

What about the coins with the Varus countermarks? Is this not evidence of some value? Or was that a myth?

[Paullus Scipio]

Coins with the "VAR" countermark have evidently turned up elsewhere in a different context - some coins of Tiberius bearing it have been found - casting doubt on the fact that the "VAR" stood for Varus. ( see P.73 of the special - Jasper's article).

However it is also possible that the "countermark" was continued after Varus' death because coins without it would not have looked 'right' to Barbarian eyes expecting to see it on coins circulating across the frontier......

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Sounds reasonable? Were there other Varus family members about? I seem to recall the name cropping up before or after, but not sure when.

[Paullus Scipio]

Well, in the aftermath of the battle, one of the first commanders to react was Varus' nephew, Lucius Nonius Asprenas, who commanded two legions - I Germanica and V Alaudae ( see my article p.62 of the special edition) :wink:

[geala]

It is not very likely that another "Varus" was allowed to countermark the coins or the marking was continued after Varus death. Disputed is, as far as I know, not so much the countermark "VAR" but the countermark "VAL" which could have belonged to the legate Vala or a certain legion.

The countermark "VAR" is not such a strong evidence that Kalkriese was connected with the "Clades Variana". It gives us just a point before which the battle could not have taken place. Varus took over command in 7 AD, so it is highly unlikely that the battle took place before 7 AD, because no coins would have been stamped with "VAR" before 7 AD. But the countermark gives us no end date. If no new coins of the Lugdunensis II series, stamped after 10 AD, came into the Germania Magna (and that is the argument of the contra-Kalkriese-Varus battle-faction, see also the new discussion about the so called "Haltern Horizont"), then just the older "VAR" coins would habe been used up to 16 AD, so the findings would not necessarily point to the Varus battle but the coins could also have been lost in a fight during Germanicus' invasions 15 and 16 AD. The discussion is still more tricky and delicate and I don't know it so very well, but perhaps you get a rough image. Otherwise I could give you some hints to literature, mostly however in German I fear.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I understand exactly, and that would be my viewpoint as well, only in sofar as coins found in areas that are post Varus would still be used after his death. I think you can find coins of julius caesar up near Hadrains wall, which is long after his demise!

[Quintius Clavus]

I saw in the Special Issue, mention of coin(s) of Tiberius bearing also the VAR countermark. I am curious as to where it or they were found? At Kalkriese as well or in a nearby location? Where?
And a related question. Have a few coins from later coin issues (say the 10 AD issue or very early Tiberius coins) been found at or near Kalkriese? (I saw from re-reading earlier posts that apparently no coins after the 10 AD issue have been found thus far at the Kalkriese site)
If only very few, of course, the later coin issues could have gotten there with the soldiers who collected the bones and buried them. That, of course, does not address the later use of the VAR countermark. (See above, thus presumably none of Germanicus' soldiers dropped any of their spare change.)
I recall that finding actual battlefields, especially ones relatively undisturbed, is not a common occurrence. The suggestion by some is that this was the site of a later battle fought by Germanicus. Yet, would victorious Romans have lost that many coins? To my mind the numbers of coins found point to an army or at least a sizable number of Roman troops (less than the whole three legions by this point) who were defeated.

[Vincula]

I saw in the Special Issue, mention of coin(s) of Tiberius bearing also the VAR countermark. I am curious as to where it or they were found?

Yes I was disapouinted there was no map of the finds.

[geala]

As far as I know till now no coins of a series made after 10 AD were found at Kalkriese. Unfortunately I don't own the Special Issue. Is there new information in it?

[Robert Vermaat]

As far as I know till now no coins of a series made after 10 AD were found at Kalkriese.

As I understand it, this statement is no longer made as a fact.