Battle of Teutoburg Forest in 9AD question

[historyswarriors]

Hello all- I am working on a History Channel show about the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and I wonder if anyone can give me an idea of the size of the forest itself?

[Jona Lendering]

There was no forest. "Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis.

I proposed this in my book De randen van de aarde. De Romeinen tussen Schelde en Eems (2000). A summary of the argument can be found here (in English); I also published it here; and it was published also by Adrian Murdoch, Rome's Greatest Defeat. Massacre in the Teutoburg Forest. I had the impression it was plagiarized from my website, but Murdoch claims it is his own discovery, so that makes two people who have independently proposed that there was no forest, plus the pollen analysis people.

[historyswarriors]

Thank you for the information. It's a very interesting point that you bring up, and I appreciate the insight.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

There was no forest.

How sure are you here Jona? No offence meant, but I don't think there's consensus to that point. Granted, the findings in Kalkriese have made it clear, that at least some parts of the battle didn't happen in dense forrest, but the fighting happened over some dozens of square miles and days. And the primary sources are quite clear about dense forrest, at least partly. I think it cannot all be blamed on the Romans looking for an excuse or using stereotyped views on Germania.

"Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis.

Do you consider "saltus teutoburgiensis" a quite closely limited area then? But the battle was far bigger and I guess the Romans had given some more geographical names if it only applied to a small part of the battle. But well, this has happended to other battles as well. :?

[Jona Lendering]

I don't think there's consensus to that point.

I agree, but that's because not everyone has seen the pollen analysis. I only know through it indirectly, and suppose it has been published in German only. Sadly, old consensuses (consensi? consensûs?) survive when arguments that make them impossible, are not widely known. That's why the Wikipedia is such a disaster: correct, recent information is removed by authors who correct because "everybody knows" this or that.

the primary sources are quite clear about dense forrest, at least partly. I think it cannot all be blamed on the Romans looking for an excuse or using stereotyped views on Germania.

I am not very optimistic about this last point. There are too many really ridiculous mistakes, especially in Cassius Dio and Tacitus, who happen to be among our main sources. But this is indeed a matter of taste.

"Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis.

Do you consider "saltus teutoburgiensis" a quite closely limited area then?[/quote]
Yes, and I even think -ridiculous though it seems even to myself- that it is an area close to Kalkriese (note the modern toponym Engter), and that Kalkriese happens to be the main assault. My argument is the way the finds are spread over the country.

I think this means that an army, coming from the east, was attacked and divided itself into two new columns, one proceeding to the northwest, the other to the west. I think that the army going to the NW was still going to the original destination (the river Hase/Ems, and hence to the rebellious Chauci) and the other one had received new orders, to move to the pontes longi in the Munsterland and a site like Haltern.

The march of this army is described by Dio, and I think it may have reached the northern Munsterland. It certainly can have encountered forests. Interestingly, Tacitus mentions Caecina as having a vision of Varus in the marches; Caecina, at that time, is in the Munsterland. I think that future archaeological research must be done between Osnabruck and Munster.

On the other hand, I am hoping that there will be another explanation for the spread of the finds at Kalkriese. The idea that they have found the site of the main attack, somehow is a bit uncomfortable. If things sound too good to be true, they are usually not true.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Are you folks familiar with this theory:
Schoppe?

[Jona Lendering]

Are you folks familiar with this theory:
Schoppe?

Vaguely; right now, there are several new theories. I read two or three revisionist books, and decided no longer to read them. There's too much crap in them.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Tacitus, Annales, 2.19:
At last they chose a spot closed in by a river and by forests, within which was a narrow swampy plain. The woods too were surrounded by a bottomless morass, only on one side of it the Angrivarii had raised a broad earthwork, as a boundary between themselves and the Cherusci. Here their infantry was ranged. Their cavalry they concealed in neighbouring woods, so as to be on the legions' rear, as soon as they entered the forest.


2.20:
All this was known to Cæsar. He was acquainted with their plans, their positions, with what met the eye, and what was hidden, and he prepared to turn the enemy's stratagems to their own destruction. To Seius Tubero, his chief officer, he assigned the cavalry and the plain. His infantry he drew up so that part might advance on level ground into the forest, and part clamber up the earthwork which confronted them. He charged himself with what was the specially difficult operation, leaving the rest to his officers. Those who had the level ground easily forced a passage. Those who had to assault the earthwork encountered heavy blows from above [p. 64] as if they were scaling a wall. The general saw how unequal this close fighting was, and having withdrawn his legions to a little distance, ordered the slingers and artillerymen to discharge a volley of missiles and scatter the enemy. Spears were hurled from the engines, and the more conspicuous were the defenders of the position, the more the wounds with which they were driven from it. Cæsar with some prætorian cohorts was the first, after the storming of the ramparts, to dash into the woods. There they fought at close quarters. A morass was in the enemy's rear, and the Romans were hemmed in by the river or by the hills. Both were in a desperate plight from their position; valour was their only hope, victory their only safety.

2.21:
The Germans were equally brave, but they were beaten by the nature of the fighting and of the weapons, for their vast host in so confined a space could neither thrust out nor recover their immense lances, or avail themselves of their nimble movements and lithe frames, forced as they were to a close engagement. Our soldiers, on the other hand, with their shields pressed to their breasts, and their hands grasping their sword-hilts, struck at the huge limbs and exposed faces of the barbarians, cutting a passage through the slaughtered enemy, for Arminius was now less active, either from incessant perils, or because he was partially disabled by his recent wound. As for Inguiomerus, who flew hither and thither over the battle-field, it was fortune rather than courage which forsook him. Germanicus, too, that he might be the better known, took his helmet off his head and begged his men to follow up the slaughter, as they wanted not prisoners, and the utter destruction of the nation would be the only conclusion of the war. And now, late in the day, he withdrew one of his legions from the field, to intrench a camp, while the rest till nightfall glutted themselves with the enemy's blood. Our cavalry fought with indecisive success.

This is IMO a good idea for Kalkriese. Especially in the light of the sword sheath mouthpice with the inscription "LPA" hinting to legio prima augusta which was operating in the events descibed above in 16 CE. Also the relevant Lugdunum Altar series have been redated to 13/14 CE meanwhile. In Kalkriese sling bullets were found, the text above is the only place where Tacitus descibes their use in Germania. And there´s more to it. I think it is really worth considering.
Map below helps to see why the text above goes so well with Kalkriese:
Black arrow: Germanicus´army on the march
Black lines: Walls excavated in kalkriese
Red arrows: Germanicus attacking the walls with the Praetorians
Blue arrow: Legate Tuebo
Green arrows: Rest of the army attacking Arminius

See also:
[url:3ihz9anx]http://www.clades-variana.com/kalkriese.htm[/url]
and this, summing up all the different theories:
[url:3ihz9anx]http://www.clades-variana.com/Die%20bisher%20gelaeufigsten%20Varusschlachttheorien.htm[/url]

[Jona Lendering]

I think it is really worth considering.

Certainly, although it is a bit weird that not a single coin of Tiberius was found at Kalkriese, which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13.

and this, summing up all the different theories:
[url:3fdg4x1e]http://www.clades-variana.com/Die%20bisher%20gelaeufigsten%20Varusschlachttheorien.htm[/url]

It is strange to see Otto Hoefler's Werra hypothesis mentioned over there. His main argument was the Knetterheide, which reminded him of the Gnitaheide, which is mentioned in an Icelandic text as the place where Sigurd/Siegfried killed the dragon; and he has argued (not unconvincingly) that Siegfried and Arminius have a lot in common. Unfortunately, the Knetterheide is named after a family that lived there in the seventeenth century - which makes part of his theories implausible.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Tiberius Clodius Corvinus wrote:
I don't think there's consensus to that point.

I agree, but that's because not everyone has seen the pollen analysis. I only know through it indirectly, and suppose it has been published in German only.

The pollen analysis you're talking about, does its findings apply just to the Kalkriese site or to a far wider area? I checked the University of Osnabrück's website and they indicate that at least the Kalkriese site was quite rural, but I understand it that they are talking just about the "vicinity" of Kalkriese, approx. 2 hectars.
http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de ... bung1.html

As to Schoppe I dont know about him, but his website reminded me of the *very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readers

[Paullus Scipio]

I think it is really worth considering.

Certainly, although it is a bit weird that not a single coin of Tiberius was found at Kalkriese, which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13.

Some years ago, when the Kalkriese finds were new, like Christian I had the feeling that the Kalkriese site, and the finds themselves, fitted the description ( in Tacitus) of Germanicus victory at Idistaviso in 16 A.D. better than Varus' defeat. I corresponded privately with some people who knew a lot about the finds, and was advised that the coin finds were pretty conclusive in their dates, and that because of their number, if the site had been later, then contemporary coins would almost certainly have been represented.

On the question of whether the Varian disaster occurred in woods or not, Tacitus puts these words in Germanicus' mouth:

Encouraged by the omen and finding the auspices favourable, he called an assembly, and explained the precautions which wisdom suggested as suitable for the impending battle. "It is not," he said, "plains only which are good for the fighting of Roman soldiers, but woods and forest passes, if science be used. For the huge shields and unwieldly lances of the barbarians cannot, amid trunks of trees and brushwood that springs from the ground, be so well managed as our javelins and swords and closefitting armour. Shower your blows thickly; strike at the face with your swords' points. The German has neither cuirass nor helmet; even his shield is not strengthened with leather or steel, but is of osiers woven together or of thin and painted board. If their first line is armed with spears, the rest have only weapons hardened by fire or very short.

Clearly, with their inferior equipment and organisation, the German tribes stood little chance in a huge open battle. Equally, as is pointed out by Tacitus/Germanicus, in woods, where fighting would often be man-to-man, their equipment would give the legionary the upper hand one-on-one.
How then could the Germans defeat the Legions? The way an inferior force always 'evens things up'. Ambush! Catch the Romans in open areas surrounded by woods/marshes for cover; launch fierce short sharp charges from cover and many directions.......Varus schlact !!

Even without the pollen evidence Jona refers to; as is well argued in his article linked to above, the battle(s) are unlikely to have taken place in woods...........

[caiusbeerquitius]

*very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readers

Yeah, that one´s always good for a laugh. I wouldn´t compare it to that one, though. The site doesn´t say it MUST be this or that, it offers thoughts and argues what could be the best solution.

It is strange to see Otto Hoefler's Werra hypothesis mentioned over there.

It´s for the sake of completeness, I assume. He surely isn´t taken serious.

which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13.

It might be due to the fact that there were three complete legion banks left after 9. That money has certainly gone to the other troops. Just a thought.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Oh, and what IMO might also support a later setting for the event at Kalkriese are the pelta-shaped belt buckles found there. They are absent in Dangstetten IIRC and Augsburg Oberhausen and have a tpq "late Augustan". Haltern has only eight of them (earliest version)vs. 30 + of the earlier type. Kalkriese has AFAIK 3 Pelta-shaped ones on display and one of the earlier type (?)
=> Just a personal thought, needs some checking.

[Epictetus]

Sorry to interject something off-topic, but I just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread so far. I'm quite enjoying this and already picked up much information I had no idea about previously. Keep it up.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

I think it is really worth considering.

Certainly, although it is a bit weird that not a single coin of Tiberius was found at Kalkriese, which I can not explain after the donativum of 14 or the gold emission of 13.

I read some time ago that a numismatic expert, I believe it was Wolters, said that it was impossible to determine the battlefield date just from the coins. There's a thread on here that summarizes the findings of a conference organised by the Kalkriese archeologists. But nonetheless some findings of Kalkriese still make little sense to me, too.

How then could the Germans defeat the Legions? The way an inferior force always 'evens things up'. Ambush! Catch the Romans in open areas surrounded by woods/marshes for cover; launch fierce short sharp charges from cover and many directions.......Varus schlact !!

Even without the pollen evidence Jona refers to; as is well argued in his article linked to above, the battle(s) are unlikely to have taken place in woods...........

Well, the Romans would've stuck to every open place they could find, but question is how many of these places were there. I just feel that the term "open place" and "no forrest" as I understood Jona in the first place allows for too much interpretation, when these open places were in fact just a - tactically very limiting - series of clearings, fields and the ways the army was marching on, so it could constantely being harrassed by the Germans from the safety of the woods. I give the sources here more credit and think they are way to specific to be just "invented". The Romans might not have liked it, but I really doubt they were able to restrict their fighting to the open places.

*very special* Friebe forum - which for entertainment I absolutely suggest for german readers

Yeah, that one´s always good for a laugh. I wouldn´t compare it to that one, though. The site doesn´t say it MUST be this or that, it offers thoughts and argues what could be the best solution.

My bad. I didn't mean to compare. But then I saw the Friebe-theory I remembered, that I regulary used to check its alternative history forum. I just had a look at it and its still fun, kind of, in a weird way.