Celtiberian swords

[Jesper D]

Hey,

Thanks for all that info. That link was posted before, that is were I found the photo of the "el atance" sword.

So the type VI blade could be up to about 50cm and about 5cm wide...

You don't happen to have any actual photos of type VI swords do you? I would be very interested in their hilts, especially the decorations of the hilts. Silver and copper you say? Inlaid? Are some examples that well preserved?

If I remember correctly, don't some la tene I swords from gaul have metal hilts? If so, wouldnt it be likely that some of the spanish la tene swords had metal hilts too?
Wasnt the transition from metal to organic hilts mainly a result of mass production?
Wouldn't wealthy warriors still use flashy :mrgreen: metal hilts?

Also, even if the spanish la tene swords seem to have had mostly organic hilts wouldnt they retain the old design, i.e. atrophied antenna hilts? Have any hilts of spanish la tene I variant swords survived?

Also, were the metal hilts in spain exclusively bronze? Was brass or gold used at all?

Cheers,
Jesper

[Conal]

From the various pictoral illustrations of what are now thought to be Hispaniensis they may have have retaind the same guard shape as Celtic LaTene swords but also had a lobed pommels.

I have tried to attach a picture which I believe shows this.

[Jesper D]

Hey,
Thanks for your post!
Btw where is that photo from? What period is it dated to?

I dont know what was typical hilt style of swords from gaul from this period, but as far as I know it was not atrophied antenna(two-lobed) pommels. Tri-lobed pommels, however, were more celtic than celtiberian no?
So the celtiberians would modify the blade, the scabbard and the suspension of the la tene I swords but not the hilt?

The atrophied antenna blades were shorter(up to 48cm) and had fullers while the locally produced la tene I swords were longer(up to 67cm) and did not have fullers, right? Locally produced la tene I swords co-existed with Quesada type, IV, V and VI(atrophied antenna swords). Locally produced la tene I swords could be either straight or leaf-shaped as I understand it... And the co-existing atrophied antenna swords were straight(Quesada IV, V) or leaf-shaped(Quesada VI).

Were some of the original, imported, la tene I swords actually leaf-shaped or was that a modification made in celtiberia? And did they always have fullers?

I'm also kind of stuck on the "El Atance" sword, it is long, do not have fullers(looks that way to me at least...) but still retains the celtiberian atrophied antenna hilt.


Cheers,
Jesper

[Conal]

I think it is from the Arch Of Orange, which is post Ceasarian ...about AD27???

The tri-lobate design of Celtic sword hilts was very long lived, spanning 400BC to Ceasars time. There are of course illustrations of Romans using tri-lobate swords but there is no guarantee that they came via Spain and not from direct Celtic/Gallic contact. If I recall correctly most illustrations I have seen are in a cavalry context so they may be Celtic auxiliaries.

JRMS Vol 8 is very enlightening .... have you got hold of a copy yet?

I am not sure that the LaTene I developements in Spain included any waisted type or if the Romans did that themselves.

Of course Fernando Quesada is a memeber here so you could track him down and PM him ??????

[Thersites]

Jesper, I answered your PM, but you don't seem to have noticed it.

[Thersites]

I copy/paste what I answered in the PM

Hi, Jesper
In fact there is not such 'transition'. By c. 250/200 BC there were at least four distinct types of sword in use in the Peninsula: falcata, an evolution of La Tène I Celtic sword, Quesada type VI ('Arcobriga type'), Quesada type V ('Atance'), Quesada type IV ('Alcacer'). SOme of them are exclusive of certain areas; some coexisted all over the Peninsula. Other types had already became extinct, others were yet to appear. The only leaf-bladed shaped among these is type VI (average blade lenght 34.5 cm. (smallest one is only 22.5, longest 48). So, where does gladius hispaniensis came from? Not from any of the short, atrophied antennae types (IV, V, VI), but from the Iberian version of the La Tène I type, already extinct in Gaul, but still used in Iberia. The Iberians changed the scababrd, suspension system and elements of the blade, to produce a typ (my VIIC) that became what the Romans copied.
You can read a detailed account of this in Journal of Roman Military Equimpent Studies 8 (1997). I wrote a paper on the origin of the Gladius Hispaniensis in English there.
Also you can have a look at my book on El Armamento Ibérico, published in France but in Spanish (see my web page at http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus and specially http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/index.htm and browse, some of the contents are in English but most are in Spanish with many pictures.

Hope this has been useful

[Jesper D]

Hey!
Sorry about that! My home internet has been down since the end of jan so I have been watching this forum in my mobile phone(not easy....) So I totally missed that I had new messages... :oops:

I have replied now! Thanks for getting back to me.

[Retógenes]

So, did you get your replica already?

I met this forum looking for a celtiberian sword replica, but it looks like there isn't any armory where they forge it. I've been looking for the celtiberian "antecessor" of the gladius for months, but it's a really hard job. The most similar celtiberian sword I've found is the Cogotas II, with the antennae:



So, if anyone has one good celtiberian sword replica, I would be grateful if he/she told me where to find it, thanks!

[jvrjenivs]

So, did you get your replica already?

I met this forum looking for a celtiberian sword replica, but it looks like there isn't any armory where they forge it. I've been looking for the celtiberian "antecessor" of the gladius for months, but it's a really hard job. The most similar celtiberian sword I've found is the Cogotas II, with the antennae:



So, if anyone has one good celtiberian sword replica, I would be grateful if he/she told me where to find it, thanks!

You could ask Hephestus, Theo Andela & Simon Empt or Stefan Jaroschinski to make you one, just to name a few.

[Retógenes]

I've just seen their works... impressive hock: hock:

Thanks a lot, I know where to start now!

[Jesper D]

Hey,
Actually I decided on using that exact sword above as a model for the sword I wanted. Unfortunately the smith I was negotiating with died and someone took over his company and used it as a scam base... It was all rather distasteful and disrespectable to his memory and work and it certainly made me lose my interest.

[Retógenes]

Hello everyone again.

I've just discovered a weapon smith who is forging a celtiberian sword (atrophied anntenae), following the model we mentioned some months ago.
He's following model Arcobriga or Quesada VI (from Señor Quesada Sanz), with a leaf shaped blade.

You can follow his work here (he started to forge the sword in August 2010):
http://www.armasblancas.com.ar/foros/ka ... iadas.html

Some images:




I think this is exactly what you were looking for. Maybe if you contact him, you could get one replica.

If you have more news, let me know.

[barcid]

Very Nice ,do you have a costing for the sword ?

[Retógenes]

Very Nice ,do you have a costing for the sword ?

Nope. I think he's forging it for himself, but I'm sure if you contact him in the forum link I provided, he would be glad to forge one for a reasonable cost.

[M. Demetrius]

It sure is easy to see that sword as the grandfather of the Mainz gladius, isn't it?