Emperor/Cornucopia belt plate help

[Tim Edwards]

If we also look at the thunderbolt applique there is one of the points of it missing, if that was still there and re measured we would be looking at a measurement in excess of 60mm hight.

Then put it lengthways!! (width = 40mm!)

:wink:

[PhilusEstilius]

Tim. The only situation of a thunderbolt in a horizontal position that I have ever seen is where Vejovis is hurling one, indeed look at any Scutum decoration and I would doubt you will ever find one in that situation.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Tim,

Thanks for the pictures! Do you know the tickness of the metal plate? have you pictures of the back side?

[Tim Edwards]

Im afraid I dont, I'll see what I can find, but I doubt the reports for any of these plates go into such detail.

Here's some detail and dimensions on the Augst finds:

http://www.kgv.bl.ch/index.php?id=3&tx_tsokgvz_pi1 [kat]=2&tx_tsokgvz_pi1[obj]=30&cHash=66086d1d79

Apparently these are silvered.

[caiusbeerquitius]

The only situation of a thunderbolt in a horizontal position that I have ever seen is where Vejovis is hurling one, indeed look at any Scutum decoration and I would doubt you will ever find one in that situation.

How many actual scuta depictions with thunderbolts are there from different monuments? I don´t think this is an argument against this thing being a belt decoration. IMO the Pola relief shows quite clearly that not all belts were covered with square or rectangular belts from end to end... A similar belt must have been the one that was found in Vindonissa.

[Tim Edwards]

Presumably these, from 'The early imperial "apron"', Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies 3, 1992, 81-104

[PhilusEstilius]

Christian. I am sure indeed that you are aware there are many scuta through out the Roman world with a thunderbolt emblem, and also there are several sword and dagger scabbards with similar decoration on them. These are all shown in the verticle situation of display and the very size of the ones under discussion would not have been shown otherwise simply to say they could be fitted to a belt. I do not disagree there are belts which have circular fittings to them, infact Christian Miks does show this in the monument above his drawings of the material from Vindonissa. However these do show that they are proportional in size to beltplates, to simply say that thunderbolts may have been fitted horizontal to fall in line with a theory of a Vindonissa belt is in my opinion a feeble way to support such a claim.

[Tim Edwards]

Okay, suppose we flip the thunderbolt back to the vertical (sorry I moved it!)it's now 57mm high according to the measurements I have.

The round hunt scene plate is 60mm in diameter. The acanthus plate was probably of a similar size when complete, and so voila, the thunderbolts fit with the plates!!

Granted, the square plates are smaller, so there will leather framing them, but that aint necessarily inaccurate, just look at the first Pula belt image I posted.

I still agree with the Deschler Erb, Kunzl et al.

Is there no-one out there who has attempted a reconstruction?

[Doc]

Tim,

Would you happen to have the size for the wolf/twin belt plate without the decorative border since you posted the size for the emperor/cornucopia without the decorative border.

Thanks

[PhilusEstilius]

Tim It would appear that the belt put forward in drawing by Miks is only in the region of 47mm wide, and in no way does he associate these other decorative pieces in his belt of Vindonissa.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I still fail to see why these could not be incorporated into a belt, say bordering the apron on either side, or on either side of a pugio frog etc.

Is there any reason not to try?

[Tim Edwards]

Tim, Would you happen to have the size for the wolf/twin belt plate without the decorative border since you posted the size for the emperor/cornucopia without the decorative border.

I'll see if I can dig out the missing measurements this weekend, unless someone else beats me to it.

Tim It would appear that the belt put forward in drawing by Miks is only in the region of 47mm wide, and in no way does he associate these other decorative pieces in his belt of Vindonissa.

Brian, I dont have my own copy of Miks, so I'll have to take your word on that. So what does he associate with the belt? Which of the seven pieces I mentioned?

I strongly advise you to read the original archaeological report, if you have not done so already.

Would you like me to send you a copy?

I still fail to see why these could not be incorporated into a belt, say bordering the apron on either side, or on either side of a pugio frog etc

I dont think Brian is arguing that it is impossible, simply that he finds it improbable.

Is there any reason not to try?

No, there is every reason to try, and find out what we find most practical. A sound reconstruction might give valuable weight to either argument.

[PhilusEstilius]

Tim. I would welcome any copy you might have on this subject. What infact I am trying to put forward is shown at page 5 of how to wear pugio and gladius just a bit further down in reconstruction. This is where exactly the same pieces are being discussed and we find that Christian Miks has a drawing of a suggested belt, however where we are getting all this suggestion of these belonging to a belt no one is prepared commit themselves to it for such a belt would be ridiculous. What has been suggested by Deschler - Erb or indeed anyone else is only a theory, for the size of those pieces would give us a belt some where in the region of almost 70mm wide 1st 2nd century Gladius NO 4th - 5th century possibly