Emperor/Cornucopia belt plate help

[Doc]

According to Mik's book where he shows the Vindonissa Scabbard (the one with the thunder bolts and whirlwinds) it appears as if there are other versions of the wolf/twins and emperor/cornucopia belt plates.

I know that the wolf/twins belt plate as well as that of the emperor/cornucopia have rolled edges that have small balls on either side of the rolled edge.

However, in Mik's book, I see the same belt plates without rolled edges. They are straight and smoothe.

Are there two types of wolf/twins and emperor/cornucopia belt plates? One type with rolled edges and another type with straight edges?

Does anyone have a picture of the originals (both the wolf/twins and emperor cornucopia) without the rolled edges since I have pictures of the ones with the rolled edges.


OR

Are the drawings/picutres that Miks has in his book with the Vindonissa scabbard of the wolf/twins and emperor/cornucopia real and not artistic rendition.

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

I think there are both versions.

Here are some from Vindonissa (whithout border):

http://romancoins.info/Vindonissa-0610%20(4 ).JPG

http://romancoins.info/Vindonissa-0610%20(18 ).JPG

Here some with border from Aalen and Augst:



And one from Bonn (at the lower part at the picture)

[Tim Edwards]

More from Cologne Museum:

Note how the top example has been cut down to form a circular plate. There are numerous other examples of circular plates existing.

[Tim Edwards]

Römisch Germanisches Zentral Museum, Mainz:

(May be copies)

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Seems the thickness of the plate is very thin. O'2/ 0'3 mm is my guess, but anybody have the actual thickness published?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There are probably as many versions of one motif plate as there are methods of construction.....

[Doc]

Thanks for the information and pictures. I did not know that there were so many types.

Tim, that is what I wanted to know about the emperor/cornucopia. It looks like the one form Mik's book. This may sound goofy but are these plates from Cologne the originals? They look "new".

Were the borderless belt plates Miks put on his drawing found with the sword in Vindonissa or did he use the emperor/cornucopia from Cologne?

[Tim Edwards]

Thanks for the information and pictures. I did not know that there were so many types.

Yep, the map attached shows where some of them have been found (Copyright Mike Bishop)

Were the borderless belt plates Miks put on his drawing found with the sword in Vindonissa or did he use the emperor/cornucopia from Cologne?

I dont have my own copy of Miks book so I cant give you a definitive answer.

What I can tell you is that the plates found with the belt set at Vindonissa are distinct from the image I posted from Cologne in that the Romulus/Remus plate on the Vindonissa belt was rectangular and the Tiberius/Cornucopia plate did not have pierced eyes!

[Tim Edwards]

Here is a clue as to how these may have been constructed, a stamp found near Colchester: (Again copyright M C Bishop)

Below is a belt plate of a similar type to the stamp.

I imagine the roundel in the centre of such belt plates was stamped, with the remainder tooled in afterwards.

This might account for the consistency of the round central motifs, and the frequent variation in the peripheral elements.

[Doc]

Tim,

Thanks again for the info.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Well, the belt plates founded with the sword are of various types:

One of the wolf and twins type, without borders. One of the cornucopia without borders. One circular with a hunting scene, like the stam posted by Tim. One incomplete with floral motifs, probably rounded too. And one with a bolts and thunders, following the motif of the sword itself.

All are published in Deschler-Erb "Ein Gladius mit reliefverzierter Scheide und Gürtelteilen aus dem Legionslager", Jahresbericht der Gesellchaft pro Vindonissa 1996.

[PhilusEstilius]

I would think that the one with the hunt scene can not have been used in connection with a belt from the point of view of it's size, when we look at it more carefully and the measurements it works out to be twice as wide as those beltplates.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The one with floral motifs seems wider, too...

[Doc]

Cesar,

Let me get this straight about the belt plates: The Vindonissa scabbard was found with the wolf/twins belt plate and the emperor/cornucopia belt plate without the rolled edge border correct?

The reason I am making sure is because I am having these belt plates reconstructed in silver without the rolled edge border and I do not want to go through this expense to later find out that these belt plates had rolled edge borders.

Cesar, would you happen to have a picture of the belt plate with the thunderbolts?

[Doc]

Speaking of belt plates, what rivets should one use for the belt plates without the rolled borders.

It appears that the rolled border belt plates had domed rivets since they had the balls on top and bottom of the rolled edge.

It would thus follow that the belt plates without the rolled borders would have normal flat head rivets.

Probably the romans did not care about these little particulars or maybe they did.

I originally thought of having silver domed rivets for the belt plates without borders. But then I thought they would not be "correct" for this type of plate. I am now thinking of having flat head rivets made of copper since it will form a nice contrast on the silver.

Any suggestions?