Aitor, a question for you...<br>
<br>
are the shoulder strap attachments on the back of your "WOW!!!"musculata riveted?? if so do you have a photo of it or could you send me one?<br>
<br>
and are the red designs on the straps themselves applique or are they chiselled?? embossed, well you know...<br>
<br>
i ask you since i am workingh on shoulder straps myself at the moment and am wondering how they were attached on the back-plate<br>
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best wishes and thanx in advance!!<br>
<br>
MARCvS VIBIvS MAvRINvS "The Plunderer"<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
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Hi all,<br>
I haven't turned deaf! I't's just that I have to go in search or my cuirass and borrow a digital camera. Both things will, hopefully, be accomplished next week-end!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Here are the pics!<br>
The system used to attach the shoulder straps to the back is guess by Steve but I haven't been able yet to see the back of any statue or Roman cuirass, in case they'd preserve such detail...<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/front.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/shoulders.jpg" target="top]shoulder[/url]<br>
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/IMGP0105.jpg" target="top]side[/url]<br>
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tribunus/back.jpg" target="top]back[/url]<br>
Comments?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 7/31/04 2:48 pm<br></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Very nice work by Steven. Solid brass ? Thank you for sharing with us ! Aitor, do you wear it at events with your 3rd century group ? I remember seeing a muscled cuirass being worn by the Emperor Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge (312 A.D.) in my Osprey Book "The Praetorian Guard". I wonder when the armor disappeared entirely. Anyone know if it survived into Byzantium ? (At least on the monuments in Constantinople ?)<br>
<br>
-Theo<br>
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Jaime
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Yes, it is hammered out of a sheet of brass (bronze would have been the authentic material, but it is much more diffcult to work and would have rendered unaffordable for me an already expensive deal!) details are separately embossed in copper, brass and silver and rivetted to the cuirass.<br>
My group is 4th-5th century and I haven't been able to wear the cuirass, mainly because it has to be modificated and the armourer moved and has had to construct a new workshop, and... If you order a expensive 'suit' like that, be sure of having the armourer at hand to allow a correct fitting!<br>
Osprey books are not a source in themselves. A cuiras with a Medusa head like mine is worn by emperor Honorius on an ivory dyptich and, in the East, it can be seen (as far as I know) well into the sixth century, worn by emperors and Christ himself! <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
Metal, Metal, metal !!!!!!! Have a look at the hinges on the top of the Prima Porta statue of augustus.<br>
<br>
Most of the statues of Roman emporers are copies of the armour shown in the Alexander mosaic (have a look) and possibly bare no resemblance to armour that ever existed in their time. <p></p><i></i>
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>A cuiras with a Medusa head like mine is worn by emperor Honorius on an ivory dyptich and, in the East, it can be seen (as far as I know) well into the sixth century, worn by emperors and Christ himself<hr><br>
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Does anyone know if the Roman image of Christ wearing a muscled cuirass is a mosaic or painting ? I've never seen it. Can anyone link me to a picture of what Aitor is refering to ?<br>
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I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance.<br>
<br>
-Theo <p></p><i></i>
Jaime
Salvete,<br>
<br>
Sorry to join this thread so late, but a few thoughts on Crispus's comments;<br>
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I beleive that ranks of tribune and above would wear cuirass as a matter of routine.<br>
<br>
All of Roman society was extremely hierarchical, with the emperor at the top (a God) and equestrians, senators and others taking an appropriately superior position over the hoy paloy.<br>
<br>
Most of the representations of the emperors show them in cuirass and generally hellenistic styles, linking this image with divinity.<br>
<br>
Whilst I agree that as a practical piece of equipment for battle it was rather wanting, I think that this would have been less important than the message on class structure, divine right and infalibility of the wearer it sent out.<br>
<br>
Most of the time the battle position of tribunes/legates etc would be suitably remote (as mentionned). As for your reference to Caesar 'getting stuck in' shouldn't we take this quote with a pinch of salt? perhaps his moving to a more forward position was flatteringly and reverently recorded as actually fighting at the front.<br>
<br>
If he did actually get his hands dirty, he could have removed the cuirass for manoeuvrability (expediti) or continued with it anyway. I think it's fairly safe to say even if he did engage, he wasn't fighting half as hard as his officers and troops around him.<br>
<br>
Whilst many of us have practical experience of the different types of armour, we look at it from a modern standpoint of usability. Priorities may have been rather different 2000 years ago.<br>
<br>
BTW Aitor; Stunning Cuirass, I'm seriously jealous!:<br>
<br>
Valete<br>
<br>
Mummius <p></p><i></i>
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Theodosius,<br>
<br>
try the following link, it shows Jesus dressed like a Roman officer standing on a snake and a lion. It must be a rather early depiction because it shows him yet unbearded:<br>
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[url=http://world.std.com/~kcl/smmosaicjesusromanr.jpg" target="top]world.std.com/~kcl/smmosaicjesusromanr.jpg[/url]<br>
<br>
jhhoffman,<br>
<br>
Roman emperor statues surely show metall cuirasses derived from the Greek. But I think You cannot compare Alexander's cuirass from the famous mosaic with the metall cuirasses. Alexander clearly wears a linothorax, a cuirass made of linen that is partly strengthened with metall scales at the belly area.<br>
<br>
Greets<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>
Greets - Uwe
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)Thanks for the link to the pic, Uwe!<br>
That was the depiction I was referring to. It is a VIth century wall mosaic at the Palatine Chapel in Ravenna.<br>
If the officers wore muscled cuirass during the Empire and the Dominate is anyone's guess (I think they wore it, yet ) but no less than if all legionaries wore segmentatas...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.
Rolf Steiner
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Quote:</em></strong><hr>The muscle cuirass, if necessary in any case, could always be strapped on again for the victory parade. <hr> A victorious general returning to Rome was required to exchange his armour for a civilian toga or triumphal dress. The only evidence of a parade is the Pay parade of Titus held during the siege of Jerusalem. Armour was generally only worn for battle. The muscle cuirass was symbolic for the equestrian order, but only in art, were even Roman infantrymen are still depicted in muscle cuirasses (long ones as opposed to the short ones of the <em>equites</em>).Quote:</em></strong><hr>Most of the statues of Roman emporers are copies of the armour shown in the Alexander mosaic (have a look) and possibly bare no resemblance to armour that ever existed in their time. <hr>Quote:</em></strong><hr>jhhoffman,<br>
<br>
Roman emperor statues surely show metall cuirasses derived from the Greek. But I think You cannot compare Alexander's cuirass from the famous mosaic with the metall cuirasses. Alexander clearly wears a linothorax, a cuirass made of linen that is partly strengthened with metall scales at the belly area.<br>
<hr><br>
The armour of Alexander is most likely the hemi-thorax. It's waist is reinforced with scales and it clearly has a metal chest plate. The latter has a red line along the top. This is most likely the lining. If so, the shoulder doublings are metal too, as they are lined red also.<br>
We should i.m.o. interpret the colouring of the cuirasses on the Alexander Sarcophag as indicating material with light purple or grey representing iron and light yellow for linnen or cloth. In that case we will discover that most infantrymen were an armour similar to that of the Alexander mosaic. And indeed the histories state that the foot companions were rearmoured with hemi-thoraces after the Indus.<br>
One person wears a fully grey cuirass. This should be the thorax found in the tomb of Philips II. His helmet is also unpainted (other infantrymen were painted helmets, usually light blue) so most likely he is an officer.<br>
Anyway it's this kind of armour that was copied by the Roman Cavalry in the 3rd century BC <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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Avete.<br>
<br>
I've only heard of the drawbacks of muscled cuirass from the point of view of an infantryman (in other words, of the long version of the cuirass).<br>
<br>
What about for a cavalryman who wore the short version? Would a muscled cuirass be considered the ideal armor for a cavalryman?<br>
<br>
If I'm not mistaken, the Macedonian Companion Cavalry wore bell-shaped muscled-cuirasses.<br>
<br>
Does anyone think there is something superior to the short cuirass for a cavalryman ?<br>
<br>
-Theo<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Jaime
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hell!! found the other usefull thread for my researchh!! 2004....... yaikesss
Aitor, do you have photos of you wearing the cuirass>?
best wishes,
M.VibM.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
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