questions about cavalry shoulder doublings

[Marcus Julius]

This probably should have been different threads, but I have some questions about shoulder doubling for cavalry armor.

The first is about the ornate plate pieces.
Every image caption or reference to them, says that they were worn over a Hamata cuirass. The question I have on these is, are there any statuary or other evidence showing what the rest of the shoulder looked like? Would this have been attached to more plates, like a seggy shoulder? additional segmented lames to protect the outer shoulder and/or upper arm(since Hamata and Squamata doublings that I've seen for cavalry extend outward further than for infrantry to protect the outer shoulder/upper arms more)?
Or, would these have been more of a single solid piece such as those depicted on statues attached to the muscle cuirass style breastplates?

Second subject is on Squamata - Most of what I've seen on Squamata, both recreations, and statues, show the shoulder doubling to be solid across the chest. Could someone enlighten me as to how this would be 1) attached to the shirt, 2) be able to fit a head through and yet close in around the neck as they all appear to be?


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[Tarbicus]

Most of what I've seen on Squamata, both recreations, and statues, show the shoulder doubling to be solid across the chest. Could someone enlighten me as to how this would be 1) attached to the shirt, 2) be able to fit a head through and yet close in around the neck as they all appear to be?

The 'caped' doubling I've seen is split down the middle at the front.

http://www.akg-images.com/akg_couk/_cus ... 1-40-1.jpg

http://www.stoa.org/albums/album42/Roma ... .sized.jpg

[Peroni]

The plate you posted is from the late second/third century and would have been fitted to a lamellar or locking scale cuirass. These had 'keyhole' fasteners. It's shape would be similar to this..

http://www.aeroartinc.com/aapub/rp07.asp


For an earlier reconstruction have a look at Marcus Junkelmann's site..
http://www.klassphil.uni-muenchen.de/~s ... elmann.htm

[Marcus Julius]

The plate you posted is from the late second/third century and would have been fitted to a lamellar or locking scale cuirass. These had 'keyhole' fasteners. It's shape would be similar to this..

http://www.aeroartinc.com/aapub/rp07.asp

For an earlier reconstruction have a look at Marcus Junkelmann's site..
http://www.klassphil.uni-muenchen.de/~s ... elmann.htm

Good thing I can read German! Even being able to read everything, the only reconstruction that I saw on that site was the picture of him in Hamata?

Here's a link to the completely enclosed doubling that I was referring to:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... temid,137/

[Tarbicus]

Here's a link to the completely enclosed doubling that I was referring to:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... temid,137/

Infantry, not cavalry. That's some grufty looking Batavian auxiliary who's been told to hold the horse while the cavalryman nips off to the pub.

:wink: :wink:

What you want to do is search right through the RA Imagebase tombstones, under Auxiliary Cavalryman, etc:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/index.php

[Marcus Julius]

Would that photo happen to be you, Tarbicus? Or were you the cavalryman who was off to the pub? :lol:

It wasn't just the horse that made me think him cavalry. I was looking at the width of the doubling. I remember reading that it was wider for cav than inf, covering further out on the shoulder. Although, had I looked at his belt, I'd have noticed his sword is on the right, must be Infantry then.

Regardless of whether he's cav or infantry, I'm interested in finding out how that whole assembly goes together as there doesn't appear to be any line where the doubling opens to fit it over the head, yet it's tight enough around the neck to not cause any undoe exposure of soft parts.

In furthering my question about the plates, I've run across the drawing seen in this link (too big to post in here):
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m205 ... vDrawn.jpg
..and this image:


....while perusing through google searches. They were posted in a game forum, and I was wondering if anyone in here could point me to where those images might be from. It appears that they would be supported by this tombstone:

[Peroni]

Infantry, not cavalry. That's some grufty looking Batavian auxiliary who's been told to hold the horse while the cavalryman nips off to the pub.

CHEEKY GIT!

[Tarbicus]

Would that photo happen to be you, Tarbicus? Or were you the cavalryman who was off to the pub?

Nope. See above.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Could these have been used on regular linothorax styled armour? say on the ends of maille doublers?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That is an interesting image, Brian/Marcus. Where is it from? The second one showing the plates on the scale, as opposed to the statue/stelae.

[Marcus Julius]

That is an interesting image, Brian/Marcus. Where is it from? The second one showing the plates on the scale, as opposed to the statue/stelae.

My google searching turned up a game forum for Total War posting from two years ago. The guy who posted that one and the line drawing that I linked to lives in Nijmegen, and was complaining about the accuracy of the models in Rome Total War (the nerve! You mean I can't use the Total War models as evidence for my kit?). He was saying that the cavalry should look like this instead of Praetorians on horse.

I didn't want to sign up in that forum, just on the off chance that the poster might still be around. I'd hoped one of this forum's members could point out where they might be from.

It doesn't appear to be metallic, but almost like plastic. I was starting to think it might be a miniature model or something, except for the cord attached to the pin in the turnkeys.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol:

Well, it is hard to tell, but seems to be a B + W image. Looks like metal...maybe.

[Nantonos]

I was wondering if anyone in here could point me to where those images might be from. It appears that they would be supported by this tombstone:

The tombstone is from Bonn and is in the Landesmuseum Bonn. It has an inscription:

CIL 13, 08095 = AE 1892, 00035 = AE 1893, +00035
Vonatorix Du/conis f(ilius) eques ala / Longiniana an/norum XLV stipen/diorum XVII h(ic) s(itus) e(st)

I have hi res photos of the inscription and of the carving. Unfortunately the place where the plates join is obscured by the shaft of the spear.

[Marcus Julius]

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear in that statement. I know the stele. It's featured in Goldsworthy's Complete Roman Army. The one's I'm trying to find source information on are the line drawing and the close up.

On a further note, I'm beginning to lean more and more on those depictions being accurate. I've been digging as much as I can through my meager library at home. In The Roman Cavalry (Dixon and Southern) when discussing methods of the opening in scale shirts to enable the soldiers to put them on (page 40), the rear and side openings are discussed, and then there is this:

The style of Lorica Squamata prevalent during the first and second centuries AD, appears to have been a thigh length shirt with two breast plates joined together on the chest, with short side slits in order to facilitate it being worn on horseback.

....followed by a reference to the same tombstone which is pictured on the opposite page.

Although I don't believe a single gravestone is hardly evidence of common practice, I've seen more than a few different pieces of these plates. I think I'm pretty much settled on putting together a squamata this way unless this thread turns up some good evidence to the contrary before I finish cutting and punching all the scales.

[drsrob]

Don't forget that the stele of Vonatorix is from the 1st C AD, while the chest fasteners you refer to all dat from the 2nd/3rd C AD.