Squamata for late Augustan impression?

[caiusbeerquitius]

Brian.
Thanks for this! I already knew that one, I am looking far an actual scale, though.
C.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

The group of 650 scales found at Masada is thought to come from Herod's storage and thus could be from the time of Augustus. I do not know though how Roman those scales are. If you are interested, I could provide the dimensions and pictures from the article.

[Peroni]

most of the Masada scales are strange in that they have not only a raised midrib, but also a raised edge as well. No holes for connecting them to a neighbouring scale - just holes for stitching to the backing garment.

[jvrjenivs]

most of the Masada scales are strange in that they have not only a raised midrib, but also a raised edge as well. No holes for connecting them to a neighbouring scale - just holes for stitching to the backing garment.

sounds almost like a lorica hamata squamataque kind of construction? Or aren't the holes in the raised rib. I would also be interested in those pictures and dimensions.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Alexander, thanks )
I am looking for a scale or scales with a clear context from an Augustan site... I looked through many of the relevant excavation reports but seem to be unable to find something...

[Dan Howard]

Scale can be dated back to the 10th Century BC in use by the Egyptians.

15th century BC. Though the Petrie Museum has four copper "scales" that have been dated to the 20th century BC.

[Peroni]

Thanks Dan! I stand corrected!

sounds almost like a lorica hamata squamataque kind of construction? Or aren't the holes in the raised rib. I would also be interested in those pictures and dimensions.

Here you go Jurjen...

[jvrjenivs]

Thanks Ade. Those are indeed interesting, but a lot harder to make as simple plain flat scales.

[Peroni]

but a lot harder to make as simple plain flat scales.

definately!

[PhilusEstilius]

Adrian.

Those scales you show are a bit unusual having only a four hole arrangement for not having any side holes just how could they be put together in strip lengths and then be applied to an under garment very strange, Is there any evidence as to exactly where at Masada they were found ie are they Roman or Jewish armour.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I would go with Jurjens idea, scales on mail, if I understand you correctly?

[PhilusEstilius]

After having had another look at those scales shown by Adrian I am inclined to think that they have such a uniformity about the central rib and their raised edges, that this particular work may well have been carried out with one shaped punch and also the four hole arrangement appears to have been done with a possible four pointed punch. There is also on many of them odd holes punched in them just here and there for some reason.

Infact the whole uniformity of the scales themselves tends to point to them having been punched out of sheet and not cut with snips, then the next step being the four holes followed by the central rib and edging in one go.

[Rado]

I would like to ask you guys :Is it correctly in this case (for Augustan late period) to be used for Roman reenacting :large plates with edge (3.5 cm x 2.5 cm) from Deepeeka?
Thanks in advance for the advice.

[PhilusEstilius]

[attachment=4659]permcol31Small.jpg[/attachment]
I do have a punch tool that I do need to refurbish that not only cuts scales but also puts in a six hole arrangement and gives the strips to connect them together all in one go and these scales are 2cm X 3cm in size. the hole arrangement being very similar in style to these gold plated ones I discovered on the internet.

[Doc]

Those scales from Masada are indeed different and may well have been used for scale on mail. However, everyone is ignoring the pictures to the left that have hole patterns in the same position found in Roman scales. The only difference is that AFAIK, there have not been bonified Roman scales found with a mid-rib for squamata. This is the only example of similar Roman hole patterns but with a mid-rid..........but it is not known if it is Roman.

However Rado, in my opinion......there are many sculptures showing ribbed scales on Roman soldiers and I would be hard pressed to believe that they are ALL artistic liscence. I too will make a squamata at some point and will use those scales from Masada without the border but with all the other hole arrangment.

In other words, ribbed scales are shown on many Roman sculptures, and the hole pattern is known on Roman scales. These scales from Masada are proof that there are squamata scales with a known hole patter that have a rib. To me, it is ridiculous to think that if such a pattern existed that the Romans in their fancy would NEVER use such an item especially since it is depicted everywhere.

I think people get too hung up on the actual evidence and start losing site that variations most likely could and in my opinion, did appear.

Having said this, I think you should not use the Deepeeka scales simply because if you want to keep with the "evidence" the best evidence available for a ribbed squamata scale is the one from Masada (left picture no border) (still a variation but very plausible in my opinion) that in contstruction and appearence looks the closest to something Roman.