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The 1,000 man legion
#31
Quote:Well then, you must have a basis, say a time line, that proves your assertion.
Why? Did Goldsworthy not prove his assertion by providing a list of battles where the emperor was in command, or did you just accept his word at face value?

OK, I'll try to look up a list or else make one myself, about emperors commanding and no longer commanding. What sort of list or time-line are you looking for? Something basic, I don't have the time for a thesis. :wink:

Quote:Goldsworthy's observation is still valid to me. It explains the inability of the later Empire to meet military threats at least in part and serves to better explain why Rome "fell".
The list I gave you above of army numbers (which was just that, a list of army numbers), already proves that he was wrong, as it shows that larger armies were commanded by generals. which bring me to an earlier post of yours:

Quote:Before we go farther, we might ask which of these armies was commanded by a general and which was commanded by an Emperor?
The list tells you who was in command. The larger armies were not the standing armies under discussion here, but expeditionary forces or armies brought up to a maximum size just for one batttle or short campaign - usually in a civil war scenario (e.g. Constantine vs. Licinius).

Quote:This, of course, does not even begin to question the accuracy of the numbers [..]Then again, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Well, if you start that, this whole discussion is useless, because if every time when you encounter a figure that prove your assumption wrong you bring this up we might as well all go home. We work with what we have and discuss the sources an a different context. Shall we continue?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#32
Valerius/Robert wrote:
Quote:To enhance Robert’s list, here are some numbers of Late Roman expeditionary armies, led by emperors and generals alike. I say that they do not differ that much from the size of armies from the Republic or Principate.
...and by way of comparison, here are some First C A.D. 'orbats'....numbers are only approximate in most cases
Germanicus against the Germans
First campaign across the Rhine 14 A.D.
Vexillation of 4 Legions - I Germanica, V Alaudae,XX Valeria Victrix, XXI Rapax ( 12,000) 26 cohorts of Auxilia( 13,000) 8 Ala of cavalry(4,000)
Total: 29,000

Second campaign against the Chatti and Cherusci ; 15 A.D.
(i) Under Caecina: 4 full Legions (those above)(20,000), 10 Cohorts of Auxilia( 5,000) cavalry not mentioned and almost certainly not present in forest/swamp campaign, German symmachiarii/allies, unknown but perhaps 5,000 or so
Total: 30,000 plus
(ii) Under Germanicus; Vexillations of 4 Legions -II Augusta XIII Gemina XIV Gemina , XVI Gallica (12-15,000) 20 Auxilia cohorts and German Allies (Chauci), but total probably c. 15,000 ; Cavalry numbers unknown, but likely to have been 8,000 or so
Total: 30-40,000

Grand Total: 60-70,000

Third Campaign against the Cherusci 16 A.D. ; Battle of Idistavisto
8 legions referred to above plus 2 cohorts of Praetorians. probably 40-60 cohorts of Auxilia, including 5 of archers; includes Batavians, Raetians Gallic and Vindelicians 10-12 Ala of cavalry, including mounted bowmen;
German Allies including Ubii,Tungri Treviri,Nervii and Chauci (8-10,000?)
Total: 70-80,000

Numidian Campaign against Tacfarinas A.D. 17
Marcus Furius Camillus: 1 Legio- III Augusta ( 5.000); 5-8 auxiliary cohorts,(2,500- 4,000) 2 Ala of cavalry (1,000)
Total: 8-10,000

Second campaign against Tacfarinas: A.D. 18-24
Quintus Junius Blaesus: 2 Legions - IX Hispana, III Augusta; unknown number of auxiliaries ( 8-10 cohorts? 5,000? ...or more), unknown number of cavalry (2-4 Ala? 1-2,000?)
Total: 17,000 (?)
Publius Cornelius Dolabella A.D. 24 :
1 Legion - III Augusta plus unknown numbers of auxilia and cavalry ( 5,000-7,000?) plus Ally: King Ptolemy of Mauretania with unknown number of Moorish Light cavalry and Light infantry
Total: 10-12,000 (?) plus Allies (Moors)

Gaius Sabinus campaigns against Thracians; A.D. 26
2 Legions - IV Scythica, V Macedonica (10,000) plus unknown number of auxiliary cohorts, but including large numbers of archers, a cohort of Sugumbrii and several loyal Thracian cohorts (10,000?)
Total: 20,000

Lucius Apronius campaign against the Frisians A.D. 29
Vexillations from Legio XVI Gallica,XIII Gemina XIV Gemina and II Augusta ( probably 10-12 cohorts) plus all of Legio V Alaudae (probably)
(10-11,000) plus unknown number of Auxilia and cavalry ( 10-12,000?)
plus Allies from Canninefates - Light Infantry and Cavalry ( 3-5,000?)
Total : 25,000 (aprox?)

A slightly different Roman force, numbers unknown, but interesting composition:
Publius Pomponius Secundus versus a Chatti raid on Upper Germany, A.D. 50
Pomponius sends out a flying column consisting of Auxiliary cavalry, several Cohortes Equitate ( part mounted) and Symmachiarii levied from the tribes of the Vangiones and others. These destroy two raiding forces, and then fall back on a supporting Legionary force ( vexillations from Legiones II, XIII, XIV, XVI) who support them against a full Chatti mobilisation.

Ostorius Scapula defeats Caratacus A.D. 51
Large force based on two Legions ( probably XX and XIV ) Large Auxiliary cavalry and Infantry force including large numbers of Batavians
Total : c. 20,000 (?)

Corbulo's campaign against Parthia 54-55 A.D.
Eastern Legions X Fretensis, XII Fulminata (Syrian garrison brought up to full strength by drafts) plus Legio IV Scythica ; Vexillation s from garrison of Egypt and Moesia ( Legiones VI Ferrata and III Gallica ) plus unknown number of auxiliaries, but including whole garrison of Asia and Cappadocia.
Allies: Aggrippa II and Antiochus Epiphanes IV of Commagene ( who carried out independent operations)

Total : 20,000 legionaries (?) plus similar number of auxiliaries ( 10-20,000?) plus Allies total c. 40-45,000 aprox?

Corbulo's second Campaign against Parthia A.D 58
Legio III Gallica, Legio VI Ferrata, vexillation (3,000) from Legio X Fretensis. At least 3,000 Auxiliary Cavalry, plus large number of Auxiliary Pedites including large number of Archers, and "two types of slingers" (trained auxiliaries c.f. Hadrian's address and specialist slinger units? ), again including whole Auxiliary garrison of of Asia and Cappadocia [ this could be researched further, but I don't have time! ]
No Allied King's forces.
Totals: Legions 13,000; Cavalry Alae 3-5,000 ( possibly plus 1,000 lt Cavalry archers from Agrippa King of Judaea);Auxilia 8-10,000?
TOTAL: 26-30,000

The army defeats the Parthian King Tiridates and Artaxata is burnt to the ground. Corbulo then moves into Armenia and places the Roman nominee Tigranes on the throne, thereby ensuring the 'buffer state' is friendly to Rome, the object of the exercise.
Two cohorts of Legionaries, three of Auxilia, and two Ala are left to bolster the Armenian King's forces.

Seutonius against Boudicca 60 A.D.
(i) Attempted relief of Camulodonum by Legio IX Hiapana and associated auxiliaries - possibly 5-8 cohorts plus 2 Ala or 1 Ala and cavalry from Cohortes Equitatae - perhaps fewer if some were in Wales with Seutonius stamping out the Druids. Tacitus says the "entire Infantry force were massacred", but this must be a gross exaggeration, because the commander, Petilius Cerialis successfully withdraws to his camp and subsequently becomes Governor of Britain. A glimpse of the truth may be seen a little later when Tacitus tells us two thousand legionaries were transferred from Germany, and this brought the Legion up to strength.

Total: Legio IX (5,000) plus 2,500 -4,000 Auxilia plus 1,000 cavalry; total 8-10,000

(ii) Seutonius force: Legio XIV; small vexillation from Legio XX (6,000?); 4-6 cohorts of Auxilia ( 2-3,000); 2 Ala of cavalry (1,000) plus more from cohortes equitatae ( the shortage of Auxiliaries will have been necessitated by the need to leave troops in Wales.) This force defeats Boudicca, losing 400 dead and 600 wounded.

Total: ( given by Tacitus) 10,000

Corbulo's third Campaign against Parthia 59-63 A.D.
(i) Lucius Paetus force: Legio IV Scythica ( from Moesia 57 AD); Legio XII Fulminata and Legio I Germanica ( from Germany via Moesia) - maybe vexillations only?
All the Auxiliaries from Pontus, Galatia and Cappadocia (number unknown - perhaps 10-15,000.) Legio V Macedonica moves to Pontus to replace garrison.
(ii) Corbulo retains Legio III, VI and X of his original force plus Antiochus' army
Total: Legio 10-12,000 Auxilia 10-15,000? unknown Cavalry; total 25-30,000 aprox

Paetus' force are scattered in garrisons, and besieged by Parthian King Vologaeses
Corbulo sends a relief force -Vexillation of 2 cohorts from each of Legio VI; X; III (3,000) plus I Ala Milliara (800) and I Cohors Milliara (800) -Tacitus give total as 4,600

Corbulo's invasion of Armenia :
Legio IV and XII are sent to Syria as garrison after their mauling; Legio X, also weakened, is left behind .
Legio VI, III and V Macedonica ( from Pontus) are re-inforced by Legio Xv Appollinaris from Pannonia, plus detachments from Egypt and Illyricum; plus the previously mentioned Auxilia and the contingents of both Agrippa and Antiochus

Total: Legiones 20,000; Auxilia 15-20,000; Cavalry 3-5,000?
Allies 5-6,000 incl 1-2,00 lt cavalry ( Horse archers?) total 45-50,000


The Jewish War (66-70 A.D.)
(i) Cestius' initial force : Legio XII Fulminata; vexillation of 4 cohorts each of Legio III Cyrenaica and Legio XXII Deiotoriana ( 9,000); 6 Auxilia cohortes Milliara (5,000); 4 Ala of Cavalry
Allies: Antiochus of Commagene 2,000 lt cavalry archers plus 3,000 foot archers;Aggrippa of Judaea 1,500 lt cavalry archers plus 3,000 archers; Soaemus of Emesa 1,200 lt cav archers plus 1.500 foot archers plus 1,000 Lt Inf
Totals: (likely actual figures) Legiones(20,000); Auxilia ( 4,800) Ala (2,000)
Allies: 4,700 lt cav archers; 7,500 Light Infantry archers 1,000 lt Infantry
Total 28,000


(ii) Vespasian's force: Legio XII Fulminata, Legio V Macedonica, Legio X Fretensis and Legio XV Apollinaris ( possibly brought up to strength by drafts and vexillations; 5,500 each paper strength); 10 Cohors Milliara (8,500); 13 cohortes Equitatae (whether Milliary or Quingenary unknown; 6,500-11,000)
Allies: Antiochus: 1,000 lt cav, 2,000 foot archers
Agrippa: 1,000 lt cav, 2,000 foot archers
Soaemus: 1,000 lt cav, 2,000 foot archers, 1,000 lt Inf
Malchus ( Arabian) 1,000 lt cav, 3,000 archers, 2,000 lt Inf
Totals: Legions 20,000 Aux 13-15,000 Ala 3,000 Equitate cav 1,500
Allies 4,000 lt cav, 8,000 Lt Inf archers, 3,000 Lt Inf

Total: 52,000-54,000 ( Josephus gives 60,000 - true if full paper strengths are assumed, and the vexillations ( not referred to) from Legio III Cyrenaica and XXII Deiotoriana (2,000 each) were in fact still present.

(iii) Titus' force (siege of Jerusalem)
Josephus says Legio V; XII ; X; XV (minus vexillations went west in civil war with Mucianus - 4 cohorts from each Legion (2,000 each); "Many Auxiliaries" plus "the Royal Allies" (see above) Tacitus has the same legions as Josephus - V,X and XV were brought up to strength with vexillations from III and XXII ( see above), plus a weak Legio XII ( probably 3,000); 20 Auxiliary cohorts and 8 Ala

footnote; This may be the last occasion a Macedonian Phalanx was ever employed; Antiochus Epiphanes brought to the siege " a large force of Heavy Infantry" and a Bodyguard "trained and equipped in the Macedonian manner". Cataphracts too may have been around in small numbers - Josephus records cavalry " completely encased in armour and with long spears in rest"
Totals: Legiones c. 15,000; Cavalry (3,000 Alae, 1,200 Equitatae;Auxilia 8,000 milliara plus 3,500 Equitatae: total c. 31,000 plus Allies unknown numbers

Revolt of Civilis ( Batavians) 69-70 A.D.
(i) Lupercus force: Rump of Legio V Alaudae and XV Primigenia at Vetera - mostly veterans and evocati ( legions are with Vitellius) plus Auxilia (Rump of several cohorts of Ubii) and Cavalry besieged at Vetera
Total: circa 5-6,000 ( after Batavian auxilia defect)
(ii) Gallus' force: Rump of Legio I Germanica ( veterans, recruits from Gaul and evocati - legion with Vitellius) ; Auxilia, several cohorts of newly raised Belgians (Nervii? referred to later) plus scratch levy of civilians and camp servants

Total: Legion 3,000; Auxilia 1-1,500 ; Levy, unknown
versus Batavians: 3 cohorts Equitatae ( Milliara?) plus Cohort Equitatae Canninefates ( allies)( 3,400)
Batavian experience defeats superior numbers.
(iii) Battle of Gelduba:
Vocula's force; Rump of Legio I Germanica, IV Macedonica, XVI Gallica and XXII Primigenia - mostly veterans and new recruits plus unknown number of Gallic auxiliaries and Nervian ( belgian) cohorts - during battle several cohorts of Basques and Canninefates arrive.
Totals: Legions 8,000(?) Auxilia 5-7,000 inc unknown number of cavalry plus 1,500-2,000 Basques and Canninefates
total: c. 17,000
---versus---
Batavians: 4 cohorts Equitatae (2,500-3,000); 4-6 Cohorts Auxilia( 3-4,000); 2-4 Alae (1-2,000) plus unknown number of German tribesmen Allies ( 5-6,000 aprox?)
total 12-15,000


(iv)Cerialis and Gallus against Civilis and the Gallic Empire:
Legio VIII Augusta, XI Claudia Pia Fidelis,XIII Gemina XXI Rapax II Adiutrix; re-inforcements en route XIV Gemina from Britain and VI Victrix and I Adiurix from Spain; plus an unknown number of Auxiliaries
Total ( estimated) Legion 30-40,000, Auxilia 20,000 plus?Cavalry 4-5,000?

(v) Battle of Trier: Cerialis re-acquires the loyalty of Legio I Germanica and XVI, plus the Treviri and Lingones.
Legio XXI, Legio I and XVI; Auxilia 5-10 Cohorts, including Lingones, 2-3 Cavalry Alae including Treviri
Totals: Legiones 8-10,000, Auxilia Pedites 4-7,000 Cavalry 1,500-2,500

(vi) Battle of Vetera: Cerialis Legio XXI Rapax , I and XVI, plus II,VI and XIV; 20-30 cohorts of Auxilia, 5-6 Alae of Cavalry
Totals: Legiones 18-20,000; Auxilia 15-18,000; Cavalry 3-4,5000; total 36-42,000
footnote: After the battle, Legio X arrives and XIV sent to join Gallus force

Agricola in Scotland; 84 A.D.
Vexillations from Legio IX Hispana (legion less 2,000 sent to Germany) Legio XX Valeria Victrix,Legio II Adiutrix possibly Legio II Augusta;
Auxilia 10,000 incl. cohorts of Germans, Gauls and Britons ( 4 of Batavians, probably cohors Equitatae Milliara, and 2 of Tungri are specifically mentioned) Cavalry Alae 4-5,000
Totals: Legiones 8-10,000; Auxilia 10,000; Cavalry 4-5,000 ( Britain always seems to have a high proportion of cavalry)

Trajan's First War against Dacia 101-102 A.D.
Too many Legiones to list individually, especially as there is no agreement on which Legions took part
4-6 cohorts of Praetorians, plus Equites Singularis; 10 Legions 13-15 Cavalry Alae incl several Milliara; Auxilia 50 Cohorts incl 5-6 of Archers, 13-15 Cohors Milliara and 10-12 Cohors Equtatae
Allies(Symmachiarii) 1-3,000 Numidian lt cavalry?
2-3,000 Eastern Horse Archers?
3-5,000 German tribesmen?
( actual numbers unknown)
Totals: Praetorians and Legiones 35-40,000
Guard Cavalry 1,500?
Alae 7-8,000
Equitatae 2,000
total Cavalry c. 10-11,000
Auxilia 30-35,000
Allies 8-10,000
TOTAL : 80-90,0000

Trajan's Second War against Dacia and Conquest 105-106 A.D.
4-6 Cohorts of Praetorians and Equites Singularis plus 12 Legions; Auxilia at least 60 Cohorts including at least 6 of Archers, 15 Milliara and 12 Equitata; Cavalry 15 Alae incl several Milliara; Allies, similar to First War

Totals: Legions and Praetorians 40-45,000; Cavalry 12-15,000 ( incl Equitatae) Auxilia c. 40,000; Allies 8-10,000
TOTAL 90-110,000


Of course all numbers are approximate and largely based roughly on paper strengths, but actual numbers as per the Histories are given where possible ( though it is evident some authors are also guessing numbers based on paper strengths) but nevertheless the above figures should be in the right 'Ballpark' though all of them could be debated and refined !! Confusedhock: :roll:

Hopefully comparisons with Robert's figures for Later Roman Empire armies will prove interesting and germane to the present discussion.... Smile D
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#33
Great stuff, Paul!

I think that this demonstrates that there was a 'comfort level' of force size from 10 to 30k for most Roman campaign purposes---with higher numbers for 'major effort' campaigns meant to settle some question once and for all--Germany in AD15-16 (which didn't work out exactly) and Dacia, and the Jewish revolt of AD66-70 (which did).

Looking back at Robert/Vortigern's list, I think we see something similar: Real big armies to settle the civil wars (Constantine/Maxentius & Constantine/Licinius) and then the major efforts that Julian put out in 363 against Persia, and that failed expedition to recover Africa in 457. That one in particular is interesting from a conter-factual perspective--would a successful recovery of Africa stopped the slide of the Western Empire in any meaningful way?

And back to Tim's original question of whether the Romans used smaller legionary units in the East, it appears that they did, although I do find interesting the composition of the Eastern Field Army: (usually dated to sometime around AD395)

10 Vexillationes comitatenses:
Comites catafractarii Bucellarii iuniores
Equites armigeri seniores Orientales
Equites tertio Dalmatae
Equites primi scutarii Orientales
Equites secundi stablesiani
Equites tertii stablesiani
Equites promoti clibanarii
Equites quarti clibanarii Parthi
Equites primi sagittarii
Cuneus equitum secundorum clibanariorum Palmirenorum

2 Auxilia palatina:
Felices Arcadiani seniores
Felices Honoriani seniores

9 Legiones comitatenses:
Quinta Macedonica
Martenses seniores
Septima gemina
Decima gemina
Balistarii seniores
Prima Flavia Constantia
Secunda Flavia Constantia Thebaeorum
Secunda Felix Valentis Thebaeorum
Prima Flavia Theodosiana

11 pseudocomitatenses:
Prima Armeniaca
Secunda Armeniaca
Equites tertio Dalmatae
Fortenses auxiliarii
Funditores
Prima Italica
Quarta Italica
Sexta Parthica
Prima Isaura sagittaria
Balistarii Theodosiaci
Transtigritani

--The core of the army being a lot of close order infantry--the 9 legio comitatenses, and probably several of the psuedocomitatenses (the prima, quarta and sexta Italica units are almost certainly decended from the Italica legions on the Eastern border) And 4 units of clibanarii/catafracts (to counter the Sassinid clibanarii?)

But if you look at the composition of the border forces, for example, the Dux of Arabia,

Praefectus legionis tertiae Cyrenaicae
Praefectus legionis quartae Martiae
Equites scutarii Illyriciani
Equites promoti Illyriciani
Equites Dalmatae Illyriciani
Equites Mauri Illyriciani
Equites promoti indigenae (split over 2 separate locations)
Equites sagittari indigenae (split over 2 separate locations)
Ala nona miliaria
Ala sexta Hispanorum
Ala secunda Constantiana
Ala secunda Miliarensis
Ala prima Valentiana
Ala secunda felix Valentiniana
Cohors prima miliaria Thracum
Cohors prima Thracum
Cohors octava voluntaria
Cohors tertia felix Arabum
Cohors tertia Alpinorum

Its probable that all of these units are not 'up to strength' but the large number of cavalry units under the border dux would indicate to me that there is a lot of patrolling going on.

All of this says to me that here at least the field army is back up force for border problems.
Robert Sulentic

Uti possedetis.
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#34
Wow, Paul - that is a great compilation of information. Thanks for giving us all that. Very useful Smile
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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#35
I don't want to derail the thread, but could this reduction not be due to the incredible stresses of supplying 600,000 troops.

Mobile units could be split up and billeted more efficiently in towns and cities. Limitanei units could be placed on the frontier in more discrete units and told to supply themselves to some degree. Neither of those things are really achievable with 5,000 man legions.
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
Reply
#36
Quote:I don't want to derail the thread, but could this reduction not be due to the incredible stresses of supplying 600,000 troops.

Mobile units could be split up and billeted more efficiently in towns and cities. Limitanei units could be placed on the frontier in more discrete units and told to supply themselves to some degree. Neither of those things are really achievable with 5,000 man legions.

Maybe so. In fact, we see the creation of a mobile defense in depth force as a replacement of the large legions that occupied the borders before. To retain both would surely have been beyond the abilities of the Roman army and the economy.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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