Summarizing the Third Century Crisis

[Jona Lendering]

Jona, you may want to try to get your hands on the 7th volume of the Impact of Empire conferences.

Wow -- that one had passed me by. (Pity it's unavailable in Glasgow. :x )

I just ordered it. And here we can again witness that great Dutch ancient history swindle: the book is published by Brill, which is a Dutch publisher. But the book is distributed from England. So I must pay 20 euro extra to have the book shipped to England first, and 20 euro extra to get it back to Holland. I made a call to Brill, asking if I could visit them in Leiden and save the money (one railway ticket Amsterdam-Leiden is 7.40 euro), but that's not possible.

The problem is not Brill's, which is just a normal commercial publisher, benefiting from he shortsightedness of Dutch ancient historians. They used to cooperate with small publishers called Gieben and Forsten, because they belonged to an old boys network; and the ridiculously high bills were forwarded to the university libraries - and to the tax payer. Now, the Dutch ancient historians allow Brill to steal from you and me.

Sometimes I think that if Mao had staged the Cultural Revolution in western Europe, I would personally have sent the ancient historians to the countryside to learn a thing or two about responsibility. I am not even sure whether this is a joke - I feel really angry.

[Nicholas Gaukroger]

Sometimes I think that if Mao had staged the Cultural Revolution in western Europe, I would personally have sent the ancient historians to the countryside to learn a thing or two about responsibility. I am not even sure whether this is a joke - I feel really angry.

But not quite angry enough for Qin Shihuangdi's bury them alive approach :lol:

[Sean Manning]

Put that way, the original question makes me wonder about why the emperors tried to fund their increasing expenses by debasement, not increased taxation (the solution which Diocletian eventually used). A phrase or short sentence about the principate's limited powers to raise money might be wise here.

[Eleatic Guest]

Further destabilising effects for the overall security situation of the empire may have come from the Aurelian plague (lon-term loss of manpower) and the rise of Christianity (tied up time and energy).

[Jona Lendering]

A phrase or short sentence about the principate's limited powers to raise money might be wise here.

Point taken.

Further destabilising effects for the overall security situation of the empire may have come from the Aurelian plague (lon-term loss of manpower) and the rise of Christianity (tied up time and energy).

The recent (2007) Cambridge Economic History of the Greco-Roman World (now here is a book that every single cent of its $225) also stresses the importance of epidemics, but it quotes an article by Scheidel, who is also the main editor of that book... I do not know what to make of that.

[Robert Vermaat]

I believe that the concentration of troops at central locations was more due to the fact that the emperors needed them to fight their fellow Romans and also needed to stay in personal contact with them to survive than to any changes in defensive strategy. With respect to the "increase" in the number of cavalry, evidence is shaky and it has been pointed out that the strategic speed of cavalry armies is far lower than that of infantry armies. Again, this may be more of an issue of concentrating "high value" troops closely around the emperor.

Agreed, but the example of the german raiders who broke through the Danube defences and entered Italy unopposed also had a part in that changing strategy. I believe that the development of (stone) walls for many cities and towns was part of that changing view.
About gallienuis, he did not so much increase the number of cavalry, than that he created cavalry units by removing the legionary cavalry and created new cavalry units from them. He is credited with creating the first proto-field army, a model on which later emperors continued.

[Jona Lendering]

About gallienuis, he did not so much increase the number of cavalry, than that he created cavalry units by removing the legionary cavalry and created new cavalry units from them. He is credited with creating the first proto-field army, a model on which later emperors continued.

Where can I read more about this? De Blois' thesis?

[Robert Vermaat]

About gallienuis, he did not so much increase the number of cavalry, than that he created cavalry units by removing the legionary cavalry and created new cavalry units from them. He is credited with creating the first proto-field army, a model on which later emperors continued.

Where can I read more about this? De Blois' thesis?

Nicasie mentions that the evidence is scanty and mainly based on the 12th-c. Byzantine chronicler Cedrenus (Georgius Cedrenus, Historiarum compendium VII 406). Apparently this reserve was created c. 258 and based in Milan under a new high commander, the praefectus equitum. I found this in Hoffmann.

[jho]

Where can I read more about this? De Blois' thesis?

I believe that this theory was originally developed in Grosse, Robert: Römische Militärgeschichte von Gallienus bis zum Beginn der byzantinischen Themenverfassung. Berlin: Weidmann, 1929 but I do not have him at hand.

[Praefectusclassis]

IIRC Scheidel is a strong proponent of one of the sides in the debate 'crisis or not'. That may be important to know when reading his economic theory vs the 3rd century.

[Robert Vermaat]

Where can I read more about this? De Blois' thesis?

I believe that this theory was originally developed in Grosse, Robert: Römische Militärgeschichte von Gallienus bis zum Beginn der byzantinischen Themenverfassung. Berlin: Weidmann, 1929 but I do not have him at hand.

Indeed. but from 1920. :wink: Is it already in the public domain? There's a 1975 reprint from Arno Press..
Here's a pdf with Cedrenus'work:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/0 ... Interprete ),_GR_LT.pdf

[Eleatic Guest]

... I do not know what to make of that.

As a - cheaper - starting point: J. F. Gilliam: “The Plague under Marcus Aureliusâ€

[Jona Lendering]

Eleatic Guest\\n[quote]As a - cheaper - starting point: J. F. Gilliam: “The Plague under Marcus Aureliusâ€

[Graham Sumner]

It's more difficult to say things in few words than in many pages

Summary of the Third century Crisis

"Help we are surrounded!"

Sorry Jona could not resist it. Nevertheless I know what you mean I have just had to fill out a qustionnaire for my new book which was not easy.

Graham.

[SigniferOne]

For what it's worth, I believe the key to the so-called Third Century Crisis was the coincidence of barbarian invasions, natural catastrophes and civil war amongst usurpers, which exacerbated financial difficulties by disrupting the economy.

Another Marcus Aurelius or Septimius Severus could probably have weathered the storm. You can see things picking up again under Aurelian, so it was just an unfortunate episode rather than a trend.

But then Diocletian took a more authoritarian stance, which has coloured our view (imho), encouraging us to see a continuing process of decline.

Nevertheless, the cultural decline was present since the 250s if not earlier, so long before Aurelian. It is pondersome if Aurelian could have stemmed a collapse of the entire culture rather than just some military incursions on the border; but either way Diocletian came shortly thereafter and put the last nail in that coffin, as you said.