\"A War like no other\"; by Victor Davis Hanson

[PMBardunias]

Nationalizing debt just ends up getting your credit cut off faster and more completely, thus it's counter-productive, since a lack of credit is much worse than massive debt in the first place.

The thing about credit ratings is that they are relative. This is why the US dollar is still being bought even in its present state- its still a better bet than the Euro and other currencies. If the US picked a convenient fight with one of our big creditors and nationalize their holdings, it would probably improve our credit rating. In a world where the US uses military power to undercut rival economies, would you bet against the US?

As for use of military power in an attempt to hold onto fading prestige, that has apparently been a common historical pattern and the primary one that Paul Kennedy addressed in Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, such foolishness being a basic ingredient of what he termed "strategic overreach."

The presumption in a comparison to Rome is that we are assuming that this is the 5th AD. It may very well be the mid-1st century BC. I don't believe that strategic overreach is anything we are in danger of. We have not even scratched the surface of "reach", never mind overreach. The only thing limiting US imperialism right now is the wholly appropriate objection of most of our people. Imagine the world with a truly imperialistic US- where they own all of the satellites and anything you google anywhere in the world is filtered by some US government agency. With global tariffs to defray the cost to the US for combating piracy and terrorism (as the US gets to define it), like Athens with the Delian league. Europe and Japan today ultimately rely on the US for their military needs (giving them all that extra cash for social concerns), imagine that done completely and a tax to pay for it. America is isolationist by default, and even in this "depression" we have it too good to make the type of nationalistic demagogery needed to make us the next Reich attractive. But it could go that way under the wrong conditions.

[Paullus Scipio]

I certainly don't want to see a Chinese-dominated world. I think it unlikely though - their whole (very lengthy) history tells of a culture not generally interested in global mobility.

........and.....

As to what will follow, I'm not nearly sharp enough to say, but I suspect that China will remain somewhat isolationist per it's long history

I'm not sure that this is entirely true - do you know of any major cities in Europe and America that don't have "Chinatowns"? Furthermore, the Han Chinese have steadily expanded to what we know as modern China, displacing completely earlier populations. They are currently doing exactly this in Tibet, Chinese Mongolia, and other places. Historically they almost overan S.E. Asia, which still has large Chinese minorities.

Nor do they integrate with, or mix with other populations to any great degree, in part because their cultural tradition regards themselves as "sons of heaven" and all non-chinese as inferiors.....and unlike Western governments who can't see past the next election, they are quite capable, as they have proven, of pursuing long-term goals......still think it "unlikely"? :wink: :wink:

Rome made its empire pay, while we have paid to make our empire.

A nice aphorism, but again one would doubt the truth of this. The U.S.A has roughly 5% of the world's population, and consumes 25% or more of the WORLD's resources - energy such as oil, natural gas and coal, minerals and metals, everything right down to mundane things such as timber, paper and cardboard......
Arguably, the American 'empire' pays America very well indeed......

Lest that should be seen as 'anti-American', I hasten to add that I like and admire U.S. culture - up to a point, but my experience of U.S. parochialism is similar to Ghost-mojo's.......whenever I am there I invariably get asked sooner or later what state I'm from! ( The questioner evidently spots from my aussie accent that I'm not English, which by default makes me American !! :lol: :lol: :lol: )

[Justin of the New Yorkii]

Excellent thread, too many good posts to single any one of you out.

As a basically pro-American Brit (who has lived there on two occasions) I couldn't help but observing the essential bread and circuses aspect to American life. This huge powerful nation is so parochial in so many ways. Few if any people I knew had passports or had travelled much. Few cared about the world across the Pacific or the Atlantic. The national and local press and TV was totally inward-looking with little to report from abroad. You had to dig deep to find any external influences - a specialist import shop I used to visit in NYC to get my marmalade, tea and Cadbury's chocolate (never anything from Europe in the supermarkets) - cable TV stations to find British or other programmes etc. etc. Of course there was always the odd exception, like a (ex-CIA) guy I worked with who only listened to the BBC World Service! The yanks are friendly, accommodating, hospitable people who are glad to have you aboard - and awfully surprised when you choose to return home. I visited the Guilford Courthouse Battlefield Park one weekend and having wandered the site, I bought a few books in the visitor centre. I got chatting to the guy behind the till who couldn't accept I was looking forward to returning home (after several months in NC) to the UK. Why? He kept asking? The inference was - isn't everything you could possibly want here? He'd never been any other place of course.

You hit the nail right on the head... I couldn't help but notice the similarity when I read Ammianus Marcellinus' chapter about the city of Rome becoming so parochial and insulated from the outside world during the late 4th century AD.
(If it makes you feel any better, I watch the BBC World News every single weekday)

I blame the media. The bread and circuses. Keep them fed and entertained. Keep promoting the USA is best patter. Hopefully they won't be too interested in what we get up to around the planet. Of course other countries and societies are guilty of this - but it is writ large in America. Uncle Sam's comforting embrace is so seductive that many Americans I have met are absolutely genuinely shocked that anybody could think ill of America('s projection of power and self-interest) around the world. They truly believe their government is the good guys sorting out the ills of the world wherever they reach. Speading democracy and the American way. I mean that's surely what everybody wants? What they need? Isn't it?

But people get the media they deserve, really. If the people here had any interest in what's going on around the world, the media would reflect that. I don't think a media outlet that took a closer look at America's "projection of power and self-interest around the world" would find a very large audience here.

Maybe I'm simple minded, but I tend to think that a lot more credit/blame for the success/failure of nations should go to the citizens as a whole. Nations that have citizens willing and eager to sacrifice for the betterment of their country usually end up pre-eminent in international affairs (take our "Greatest Generation," who helped win World War II, or that generation of Romans during the First Punic War who were willing to sacrifice so much even when it seemed like the Republic's manpower and finances were exhausted, or those Russians who endured anything and everything during the rise of the Soviet Union).

But later in the "life span" of a country, people don't work as hard to keep their country on top, either because they have grown alienated or disenchanted, or maybe they've grown content and lazy, or a bit of both. You can see that in the decline of the Roman empire; many of the people who were asked to sacrifice on behalf of the state were disenchanted with the idea and more interested in defending their own Gothic Kingdom or Frankish Kingdom, etc., whereas some others were just feeling content and entitled, either unaware of their empire's decline or indifferent to it.

All throughout human history, that's how you end up with budget deficits; everyone wants the benefits the state provides, but nobody's willing to make any sacrifices for them. That's how treasuries are drained, that's how empires crumble. When the Roman Republic was short on money during the First Punic War, people gave out of their own pockets from a sense of duty and obligation. Could you even imagine an American having that attitude today? The conventional wisdom here seems to be "this whole system's going down the drain, get it out of my life, I don't want anything to do with it," and you have to wonder how sustainable that is.

[PMBardunias]

whenever I am there I invariably get asked sooner or later what state I'm from! ( The questioner evidently spots from my aussie accent that I'm not English, which by default makes me American !!

You've misunderstood! They simply think that Australia is the 51st state. :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ......Y'know, that would be extremely funny - but for the fact that I suspect there's some truth in it !! We've just had the whole Oprah thing roll into town and take the place over for a while ( she recorded several shows here, and brought her own audience members along as a prize for them).....when these are aired , in January I believe, no doubt many more Americans will be convinced we are the 51st state !!! lol:

[PMBardunias]

My state mandated liberal arts education has failed me yet again! Obviously Australia is the 52 state, after Canada.

[Paullus Scipio]

Funnily enough, I've never been mistaken for a Canadian! I guess Americans recognise a Canedian accent, eh?? :wink:

[PMBardunias]

I guess Americans recognise a Canedian accent, eh

Only because of the success of the movie "Strange Brew" in the US. When I was in Australia I had a group of Canadians treat me like we were all somehow distinct from the locals. I found this odd, since I don't have anything less in common with Australians besides a shared land mass.

[Ghostmojo]

My state mandated liberal arts education has failed me yet again! Obviously Australia is the 52 state, after Canada.

Erm ... excuse me just one dog-gone moment here - but I thought we were supposed to be the 51st State?!!! hock: :evil: You bigger dominion and commonwealth territories can battle it out for 52nd and 53rd place! :lol:

We are after all about the right size to be a State and there is even a film with Samuel L. Jackson set in the UK called just that - The 51st State! :wink:

I was mistaken for an Ozzie due to my accent not being exactly Queen's English :lol:

Merry Christmas to all who subscribe to it, and Merry Whatever You Believe In to everybody else D 8)

[Paralus]

The "Pax Americana", in its time, will fade. All hegemonic power waxes and wanes. There are those who despise American hegemony and there are, concomitantly, those who despise these as "anti-American". This epithet is tossed about as if it is a thoroughly 20th-21st century thing - this dislike of hegemonic power - and only related, somehow, to the US. Athens, the subject states of the Delian League, Sparta, Thebes, et al tossed this dislike about like so much fetta and olives in a Greek salad. Britain was long despised before the US and for the same reasons. There is nothing new in resentment of the leading power of the day: it has always existed. To me it is simply the natural order of things. Two thousand years ago it was Roman garrison soldiery and taxes and today it is carrier groups and McDonalds.

The US found its way to where she currently stands by a combination of power abhorring a means vacuum and politicians (and others) toting the vision. The US – as with all hegemonic powers before – has supped the fruits of economic empire and grown well accustomed to same. Policy then pursued reflects the needs of that economic empire and this, again, is thoroughly unsurprising. Such policy reflects a national economy (and military economy) built on resources absolutely crucial to it. These are well known. The other side of that coin (pardon the pun) is the maintenance of the position of the pre-eminent financial centre of the world economy that comes with being the hegemonic economic power.

It is this later that is now in decline. The resources are there; the financial heart is in need of a quadruple by-pass and the recent dose of blood thinner is only treating symptoms. The “printing of money”, once a scoffed at South American stand-by, is now a well-tried central bank policy.

What will be cause for concern is when we note US carrier groups enjoying more frequent and extended “dock time”.

I agree that what may replace an ageing US hegemon may not be welcome. Never, though, delude oneself that the US – as with every hegemon before it – looked to its own interest first and this, again, is only natural.

Thebes, though, had its time in the sun before succumbing to Macedon. I very much doubt it ever saw the Spartan hegemony as most of us see the US hegemony.

[PMBardunias]

Thebes, though, had its time in the sun before succumbing to Macedon. I very much doubt it ever saw the Spartan hegemony as most of us see the US hegemony.

A parallel to the US hegemony that is not often appreciated is how divided the opinion in Sparta was during its height- especially on Thebes. The dual kingship made for a natural "two party" system. The conflict with the society can often overshadow any presentation to a unified front towards outsiders, even enemies. One aspect of this in the modern world is that all American elections are to a great extent international, with non-voting foreign entities still managing to play a role in the election process.

As for Thebes, at the end of the day she simply played the role of spoiler, her empire was ephemeral. This was not a bad thing in and of itself, surely Greece enjoyed more freedom for a brief time. The problem is in the unintended consequences. Obviously Macedon was a worse choice than Sparta for Hegemon for a Theban, but it would have taken rare foresight to realize both that the Boeotians could not hold together an empire and that the devil you know is often better than the one you don't. Then again, the western world surely benefitted from Alexander's rule, so perhaps all worked out the best.

[Paralus]

A parallel to the US hegemony that is not often appreciated is how divided the opinion in Sparta was during its height- especially on Thebes. The dual kingship made for a natural "two party" system.

I'm not so certain that Spartan "opinion" was so divided over Thebes - or other Greek states. Spartan opinion certainly lacked any divide when it concerned Greeks of a Peloponnesian nature: these were hers to direct in her "pomp". Thebes was, increasingly, no acquiescing "League" ally. This irked Sparta greatly - more so as Thebes was no small Peloponnesian statelet.

In a new era where Sparta clearly decided to assume the mantle won from Athens, ansty allies such as Thebes were an iiritant. Giving expression to that irritation might well have garnered political support. Anyone who argues that the policy of Agesilaos was neither the expression of that irritation nor popular within Sparta flies in the face of history. Anatlcidas, though he might have disliked the Corinthian helm-in-hand posture to Persia demanded by Agesilaos' belligerent and aggressive policies, well realised the price of primacy. Agesilaos, like most politicians, merely trumpeted it; it was not ever his problem when the state failed him.

[PMBardunias]

I'm not so certain that Spartan "opinion" was so divided over Thebes - or other Greek states.

Spartan opinion was often divided and thought this could be complex, based on age groups, etc., it often seems to have devolved along "party" lines lnked to the two royal houses. This is not suprising since they Kings were ready-made demagouges, in fact this was their greatest power. This can be seen in the dispute over Cleomenes' handling of the Hippias affair. Xenophon surely alludes to this when he writes that "rumors" revolved around Cleombrotus as Boeotiophile:

Xen. Hell. 6.4.5] “Cleombrotus, if you let the Thebans escape without a battle, you will be in danger of suffering the uttermost penalty at the hands of your state. For they will remember against you not only the time when you reached Cynoscephalae and laid waste no part of the country of the Thebans, but also the time when, on your later expedition, you were beaten back from effecting your entrace, although Agesilaus always made his entrance by way of Cithaeron. Therefore if you really have a care for yourself or a desire to see your fatherland again, you must lead against these men.” Such were the words of his friends; but his opponents said: “Now is the time when the man will make it clear whether he is in truth partial to the Thebans, as rumour has it.”

Xenophon, partisan of Agiselaos, I think downplays the domestic opposition, but at times it shows through. That these "rumors", the fact behind which must at least be a reduced ardor for the foolish anti-theban policies of Agiselaos, would drive a King into a battle that proved disaterous rather than allow his portrayal as "soft" by the opposition, smacks of L. B. Johnson's escalation of the war in Viet Nam for similar reasons.

[Astiryu1]

Awesome Thread! The tangent was excellent and just so you guys know there are some Americans that look at the outside world. :wink: BBC is on PBS and the news is SO MUCH BETTER! I rarely watch anything on local news except for weather and even then it is often wrong. I like Frontline and NHK and for laughs I watch Allo' Allo' :lol:
As for the Australian's being mistaken for domestics they obviously haven't watched "Crocodile Dundee" enough times. :wink: The views expressed are all ones I can agree with at some point or another. There is a movie that is strikingly worrying me called "Idiocracy"[url:20anltwx]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/[/url] . It looks more and more real every time I watch local news.

[Dithrambus]

Awesome Thread! The tangent was excellent and just so you guys know there are some Americans that look at the outside world. :wink: BBC is on PBS and the news is SO MUCH BETTER! I rarely watch anything on local news except for weather and even then it is often wrong. I like Frontline and NHK and for laughs I watch Allo' Allo' :lol:
As for the Australian's being mistaken for domestics they obviously haven't watched "Crocodile Dundee" enough times. :wink: The views expressed are all ones I can agree with at some point or another. There is a movie that is strikingly worrying me called "Idiocracy"[url:1xk2csmt]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/[/url] . It looks more and more real every time I watch local news.

The film Idiocracy is simply a forward looking documentary of what America will eventually become.