Hanson 300 Article

[Johnny Shumate]

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson101106.html

[spartacus-033]

a very good read

[Jona Lendering]

If critics think that 300 reduces and simplifies the meaning of Thermopylae into freedom versus tyranny, they should reread carefully ancient accounts and then blame Herodotus, Plutarch, and Diodorus — who long ago boasted that Greek freedom was on trial against Persian autocracy, free men in superior fashion dying for their liberty, their enslaved enemies being whipped to enslave others.

I have not seen the movie but I read the comics, and what I find very disturbing is that Miller goes beyond Herodotus. Herodotus nowhere says that Ephialtes was deformed. Herodotus nowhere says that the Persians are black. But it is in the comic, which is not just a celebration of freedom, but also a victory of white over black, man over woman, and beautiful men over deformed people.

Besides, if you want to make a movie about the victory of freedom over slavery - why take an existing nation as an enemy? If the enemies would have been Jews, nobody would have dared to make this movie. Just imagine making a movie about a book in which the Jews are portrayed as deformed, effeminate and non-Aryan.

There's no denying that Miller is a great artist; the Sin City movie was great art as well. But why this movie? And why now?

[size=75:2454c4ji][I will not follow up this thread; 300 is a political movie and this subject will inevitably become political too...][/size]

[Narukami]

Dr. Hanson omits mention of the Helots, the Spartan slaves.

"...free men in superior fashion dying for their liberty, their enslaved enemies being whipped to enslave others."

How free were the helots?

As Dr. Holland relates in his book Persian Fire:

Leonidas ordered the helots to remain at the Hot Gates as well,
to help the Spartans prepare for battle, to serve as light infantry
and to die in the cause of their master's freedom. (p.292)

Dr. Hanson also makes the following assertion which, I think, overstates the reality of the case.

More specifically, the Western idea that soldiers themselves
decide where, how, and against whom they will fight was
contrasted against the Eastern notion of despotism and
monarchy...

Perhaps Hanson means specifically ancient Greek soldiers, for certainly this is not the case in modern armies, even for the soldiers of a democratic republic.

But, I will not digress into modern politics.

I do think the Battle of Thermopylae is a great story, worth telling again and again, be it in prose, poetry, film and yes, comic book. However, just because Frank Miller has simplified the story to meet the "needs" of the comic book format (and I'm not sure I believe that to be necessary), I do not think historians should also simplify the story by omitting inconvenient facts.

Knowing that the helots did fight makes us wonder why did they stay and fight, knowing it meant certain death? Did they hope that their courage might inspire their Spartan masters to grant their families freedom? Or was it a case of "Why not fight."

To paraphrase the Hollywood Spartacus, " When a free man dies he loses the joy of life. When a slave dies he loses the pain."

No doubt this will be a very exciting film, and we can hope that it does well enough to prompt George Clooney to finally exercise his option on Pressfield's book. But, as is often the case, the facts are far more fascinating than is the fiction.

Narukami

[Johnny Shumate]

Good points...

I will agree with Jona that Miller took to many liberties in his comic. I hated his view of the Persians. Why did he make Xerxes a negro..? Give me a break, the Persians are Aryians..!

Can we not agree that the concept of Democracy orginated with the Greeks? Regardless of the contradictions (Helots, only men voting, etc...)? Did Persia give us the concept consensual government..? I would not like to live under Athenian Democracy or a Roman Republic because of their imperfections and contradictions. Although we have to admit that these ancient governments blazed the trail for what we Americans and Europeans enjoy today....

Johnny

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think 300 reduces the story to the worst of pop culture. Far from "speaking to a modern audience," it kows to modern pop sensitivities. In that, 300 is a great piece of pop art, but beyond that it is historical trash.

[hoplite14gr]

Greeks used two terms for "slaves".

Doulos = intenured servant, serf, person forced to do commuity service. Is is legaly a person with minimal rights but no civic rights. Could be trusted to bear arms. Some times could fight a psilos. Argive slaves defending the city walls after Kleonae defeat.
Records of paid slaves survive in the Lavrion silvermines!


Andrapodon = literaly "walking thing" corrsponds exactly to the modern definition of slave. Until the mid Peloponessian War it was not supposed to happen to Greeks but only "barbarians".

After that Romas took over and the distinction ceased.

I also agree with Michael. The comig was great but I doubt how good will come on the big screen.

Kind regards

[Idomeneas]

If critics think that 300 reduces and simplifies the meaning of Thermopylae into freedom versus tyranny, they should reread carefully ancient accounts and then blame Herodotus, Plutarch, and Diodorus — who long ago boasted that Greek freedom was on trial against Persian autocracy, free men in superior fashion dying for their liberty, their enslaved enemies being whipped to enslave others.

I have not seen the movie but I read the comics, and what I find very disturbing is that Miller goes beyond Herodotus. Herodotus nowhere says that Ephialtes was deformed. Herodotus nowhere says that the Persians are black. But it is in the comic, which is not just a celebration of freedom, but also a victory of white over black, man over woman, and beautiful men over deformed people.

Besides, if you want to make a movie about the victory of freedom over slavery - why take an existing nation as an enemy? If the enemies would have been Jews, nobody would have dared to make this movie. Just imagine making a movie about a book in which the Jews are portrayed as deformed, effeminate and non-Aryan.

There's no denying that Miller is a great artist; the Sin City movie was great art as well. But why this movie? And why now?

[size=75:2a9drj6b][I will not follow up this thread; 300 is a political movie and this subject will inevitably become political too...][/size]

Miller used some cliches that not only apply to comics but storytelling in general. Ephialtes is presented as ugly and monstrous as all the bad guys in fairytales. Persians are not black they are iconised dark though imo not to evoke racial issues but to look different not only in mindset but in appearence also. Miller aimed for contrast not racist declarations. Everybody takes liberties in media like comics or movies either to help the storytelling either to pass out their own ideas and views.
For example Eric Shanower illustrates the heroic age in his Age of Bronze comic with a marvelous and very historical way. But as he admits Shanower is gay. That has as result to pass through the plot alot of stuff to point such directions and interepret some things the way he wants. The point is that Age of Bronze is Shanowers work its his creation based on epics, he is not teaching history, people dont have to use his work as refference or bibliography.

300 doesnt bother me as film. Cause it illustrates a comic its not trying to pass as ''the life of...'' ''the true story of...''

[Jona Lendering]

300 doesnt bother me as film. Cause it illustrates a comic its not trying to pass as ''the life of...'' ''the true story of...''

Yes, yes, you are very right. In the west, we make a distinction between facts and fiction. But I fear the Iranian ayatollah who does not see the difference; cf. the Rushdie affair, in which a fictional story was seen as a real insult. And I fear the western politician who believes that all civilization comes from Greece and that the Persians "are history's archvilains" (quote from The Guardian, 2004).

Anyhow - this is getting political. Let's abandon it.

[Idomeneas]

300 doesnt bother me as film. Cause it illustrates a comic its not trying to pass as ''the life of...'' ''the true story of...''

Yes, yes, you are very right. In the west, we make a distinction between facts and fiction. But I fear the Iranian ayatollah who does not see the difference; cf. the Rushdie affair, in which a fictional story was seen as a real insult. And I fear the western politician who believes that all civilization comes from Greece and that the Persians "are history's archvilains" (quote from The Guardian, 2004).

Anyhow - this is getting political. Let's abandon it.

D shock: did they actually wrote that? What is wrong with them they take expired drugs? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jona Lendering]

did they actually wrote that? What is wrong with them they take expired drugs?

It's in the review of the exposition of Achaemenid Art in the British Empire, 2005/2006. You don't need expired drugs, just the indoctrination of a good classical education. :wink:

[Johnny Shumate]

What contributions has Persia offered to Western civilization..? As an American who enjoys property ownership, free market capitalism, religious freedom, free elections, freedom of the press, a citizen army, rule by law, indirect democracy, scientific inquiry, public and private education, right to bear arms, trial by jury by my peers, freedom of speech, etc... What has Persia offered in these things..? Does modern day Iran have any of these attritbutes..?

I would say the only culture from the near East that has had the biggest impact on Western civilzation would be the Jews and their scriptures...

Johnny

[JRSCline]

Iran and Persia are quite two different things -- a lot has changed from then to now, and let's hope it changes still further. However these are modern-day political matters and we don't discuss such hotbutton topics here. Please. Thanks.

[Robert Vermaat]

I would say the only culture from the near East that has had the biggest impact on Western civilzation would be the Jews and their scriptures...

Don't be silly. Where did you think our modern alphabet originated? Writing? Or agriculture? Or irrigation techniques? Astronomy? Astrology? Administration? Law?

And maybe when I really start thinking about it I'll come up with a dozen more. :evil:

[Mythos_Ruler]

Johnny - The Persian empire had many of these things, whereas the biblical Jews had few.