The Groningen spiky helmet text in German

[Redwald]

Only that she also felt that the helmet was from the 5th or 6th century.

Paul

[Sascha]

Mostly this kind is dated later,
Some pictures of the 10th show such style.
One spiked helmet is dated to 10th -12th century.
But overall it is difficult to decide, most of this kind are findings without any inventory to compare and dating.

[plasticlegionary]

i first saw the helmet in this exhibition. The catalogue states it was dated 800-900 and that the helmet originally had cheek-pieces. The ribs are wide like the peterborough and Coppergate helmets from UK dated c. 800.

[Sascha]

Here are a short and old overview of some helmets:
http://civis.tempus-vivit.net/saxonicae ... rsicht.jpg

[plasticlegionary]

Does anyone have any information on the dating of the helmet:
Why did Kings of the North Sea date it 800-900
Why did Vogt think it early ?
Any original find context ?
What are the 'later spiky helmets' you wrote of, Sascha ?

Also, the question of cheekpieces .. there are some marks on the sides of the helmet. Has anyone info on this aspect ?

[Sascha]

We discussed such helmets earlier:
http://www.fma-portal.de/forum3/viewtop ... =44&t=1447

The only way to date is comparison, with other finds and drawings etc.
But it will be ever very relative.

Here is one dated to eight century too:
http://www.lentienser.de/kurios/fokke-igelhelm.jpg


Here a situla of the 10 century:
http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_s ... ringen.jpg

The later spiked one, but this one out of one piece (except the bands) :
http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_s ... amoson.jpg

(Main source http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_s ... guide.html )

[Nieczar]

helmets from Chamson and Niderrealta (Switzland) are from more later period than exactly spiked exemples : Brema and Groningen

and the construction is more similar to Giermundbu (Norway) from
10th. cen.

and it's other style of the spikes ....and all helmet

[Redwald]

Plasticlegionary,
You aks about the dating of the helmet --
I don't know why the Kings of the North Sea exhibition catalogue dates it so late -- the original find report puts it at 5th to 7th century and Mahand Vogt suggests 5th to 6th. I would suggest that she is correct as the construction of the helmet most closely resembles ones like St. Vid/Narona III and IV and other very similar non-spiky helmets. the Groningen like the Bheme -Fokke - spiky helm that Sascha shows are river bank finds with no context available.
The latter helm is unlikely to be eighth century either - Vogt puts this, too to the 5th or 6th centuries because of the way it is designed and constructed. There are many other spagenhelms with similar spangens to the Bheme Fokke from the 5th and 6th centuries with much better contexts.

You have to decide who you believe.


Paul

[plasticlegionary]

yes i think there is an early group - higher and with narrower bands - then the later ones with a more domed shape. problem is groninegen crosses the boundary... More domed but with very spiked rivets. the Fokke example is early because the gaps are leaf shaped and the crown is high. I would like another 9-10th century helmet but we cannot state confidently enough such a date for the groningen helm. drat !

The only other possibles are helms which could have had the 'eyebrow pieces' aplied to them from Gotland but i have yet to see a convincing candidate for them.

[Redwald]

You cannot be so emphatic about the shape -- there are quite a few 5th to 6th c broadband helms that have a low dome. The Groningen is likely to be early, stylistically because it fits well into the broadband category.
If you are referring to the eyebrows and crests recorded in Nerman's 'Vendelzeit in Gotland', then, I am afraid, that these, too, are early.
There are not many surviving helmets from the period that you mention in the northern part of Europe, but at least, there are a few pictures.

Paul

[plasticlegionary]

There are eyebrow/nasal pieces from Lokrum on Gotland which are dated to second half of the tenth century. Thunemark Nylen: Die Vikingerzeit Gotlands. Probably a Gjermundbu type helmet.
Re: Groningen , there must be some reason for the dating in the Kings of the North Sea catalogue but no one seems to know why.

[Redwald]

It's almost certainly just a mistake. The folks at the Groningen museum lso say that it is 5th to 6th century.

[garrelt]

Chris

The original paper about this helmet states that it was a single find without further context or other artifacts.
Bear also in mind that is was found during WWII.

[Nieczar]

hello

metal part of the helmet's done ...now what I've to do are all leather accesories (rim-belt and the straps)

the helmet isn't quite copy of the oryginal - just stilization in the same type ...I changed some parameters consicious because I made this helmet for me ...so, this is my Groningen helmet

[Sascha]

Great!