Unusual cavalry standard?

[Vincula]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>lots of standardbearers wear/show off ceremonial helmets <hr><br>
Exactly so. There is a theory that "sports" helmets were worn by standard bearers.<br>
I have never seen a cavalry tombstone showing a <em>sports</em> helmet, have you?<br>
Wereas, all tombstones which seem to show "parade helmets" are standard bearers. <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Well, some (like Titus Flavius Bassus from Cologne) of those cavalry tombstones seem to have helmets with the embossed (or real) hair design. Some of those, like the ones found in Nijmegen, could have masks fitted to them. Maybe the masks were left off on the tombstone? <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

<Some of those, like the ones found in Nijmegen, could have masks fitted to them. Maybe the masks were left off on the tombstone?> Or perhaps shown by painting? For example, looking at this photo, a sculptural representation (once the paint had worn off) would be very difficult to differentiate from a sculpture of a helmet without a mask.<br>
<img src="http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/kalkriese34.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>

[Uwe Bahr]

Brittanicus,<br>
<br>
to the Adamklissi rider - that is a good point. I also often wondered if these guys (and bare headed riders on grave monuments) couldn't be wearing just these cavalry sports helmets of the so called Alexander typus, where the helmet itself displays a bare headed young man - there are so many of them and modern scholars like Junkelmann beleave that they could offer enough protection without obstructing the riders view. Often those helmets were not thinner than normal combat helmets and possibly could be worn in battle. The problem is, we cannot prove anything.<br>
<br>
The same is with Your second example - Your photo shows the type of helmet that has been made by Toni Feldon, I think; there is yet another face mask helmet from the Getty Museum that displays Imperial Gallic or Italic helmet. Again it is not to prove if a rider on a monument, that obviously wears a typical cavalry combat helmet does not wear this type of face mask helmet.<br>
<br>
On the other side nobody can exclude it.<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Your photo shows the type of helmet that has been made by Toni Feldon, I think; <hr><br>
Yes, it does, but it's my picture, actually , shot at Kalkriese 2004.<br>
But it <em>does</em> look much like the stone, doesn't it? I think that indeed we would not be able to tell (without the paint) if the helmet was or was not shown with a mask.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 6/6/04 8:14 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Valerius,<br>
<br>
Thanks- and sorry for forgetting to source the photo, which is absolutely magnificent. It really struck how much the photo and pose was like some of the tombstones. And what a great helmet....<br>
<br>
Paulus <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Quote:<br>
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What lone example?<br>
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My understanding is that this tombstone is from a cavalry soldier? Just because we see a standard in the background to me doesn't make this automatically a standard bearer....... he wouldn't have any free hands for the spear, sword and shield that we can easily see in the engraving.<br>
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Quote:<br>
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The tradition of the period was to show the deceased with his face while depicting him in battle.<br>
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So how does this prove that he usually wore a sports helmet?!<br>
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It doesn't, it may be a reason why we don't see alot of parade helmets on tombstones even though they wore them in battle.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Vincula]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Just because we see a standard in the background to me doesn't make this automatically a standard bearer<hr><br>
Sorry. That's the rules. He's a standard bearer. <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

On 4/6/04 Jasper wrote:<br>
"Uhm, guys, lots of standardbearers wear/show off ceremonial helmets (Gaius Valerius Secundus, Genialis, Quintus Luccius Faustus)."<br>
<br>
Back in November on the 'Roman Helmet Puzzles' thread, Mike Bishop wrote:<br>
<br>
"There is no unequivocal evidence that standard bearers used masked helmets - the whole notion is based on two rather incompetent tombstones (those of Faustus and Secundus) from Mainz, one of which is clearly a copy of the other (they differ in the number of disks on the standard):<br>
<br>
www.romanarmy.com/Content...stusd2.jpg <br>
www.romanarmy.com/Content...ndusd3.jpg <br>
<br>
<br>
The 'thing' hovering over the shoulder of Faustus may be many things... but incontrovertible proof that standard bearers wore masked helmets it is not. Compare it with the equivalent thing/helmet over Secundus' shoulder, which is very difficult to interpret as a face mask.<br>
<br>
This is, sadly, an example of a factoid which started out as a not unreasonable hypothesis that has gradually gained acceptance by repetition without the evidence base increasing. The presence of face masks at Kalkriese (or anywhere else, come to that) adds nothing to the theory as there are 101 alternative possible interpretations of those artefacts being present in the archaeological record.<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop"<br>
<br>
<br>
I won't, for once, add anything myself. I think it has been said already.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Vincula]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>all tombstones which seem to show "parade helmets" are standard bearers. <hr><br>
I guess that's an all-important "<em>seem</em>".<br>
Altho', shooting myself in the foot, I notice that [url=http://www.romanarmy.com/Content/Imagebase/IMAGEBASE-SHOW.asp?ID=47" target="top]Reburrus[/url] has a weird mask-type look about him. <p></p><i></i>

[Praefectusclassis]

Oooops. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I just thought it might be worthwhile putting down the facts , and the conclusions/ inferences I draw.<br>
1. Three British examples (Hexham, Cirencester, Chesters) exist of cavalry standard bearers wearing ornate helmets-one (Cirencester) a full face helmet (Ribchester-style) depicted in a battle situation.<br>
2. No Latin literary mentions of separate armour or helmets being worn in parades or evidence that they used parade armour for ceremonial occasions (Feugere, Bishop & Coulston).<br>
3. A large number of surving helmets are categorised as "parade" or "sport" (see the Armamentarium)<br>
4. Arrian mentions that full-face helmets are used in cavalry sports, and distinguishes them from battle helmets.(Hippika Taktica)<br>
5. Masked helmets are mentioned in later Roman sources (Ammianus) and are also seen in numerous other nations as non parade items -note, some of these are later than the Roman period (e.g. Palmyrene, Kipchak, AngloSaxon (Sutton Hoo) etc.<br>
6. Two gravestone depictions of infantry standard bearers who "might" have face masks- but these looks very dodgy, and should be discounted (See quotes from Mike Bishop above)<br>
7. Face mask found at Kalkriese, possibly, but not definitively from a battle location.<br>
Possible conclusions:-<br>
a/ Parade armour as a separate category separate from battle or sports is not supported by the evidence.<br>
b/ Cavalry standard bearers wore ornate and sometimes full face helmets<br>
c/ The sheer number of surviving "parade" or sports helmets indicates- but does not prove - that these were in wider use than pure cavalry games as per Arrian.<br>
d/ The most likely candidate for more widespread use outside sports are the mask helmets - essentially normal helmets with a metal mask added with a forehead hinge as in the Levy collection helmet or the Axel Guttmann helmet.<br>
<br>
I deliberately have not brought in the practical observations from Junkelmann who has used "sports helmets" reconstructions, not the possible rationale (e.g. psychological effect on opponents of masked riders).<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Paul <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

...And as Feugère wrote, an exhaustive study and a typology for those masked helmets remains to be done.<br>
I personally wouldn't risk any firm conclusion regarding masked or not masked helmets on the grave stelas since they are usually very damaged and often badly carved.<br>
Reburrus, for instance, may wear a masked helmet; but he could also wear a Weiler type with the brow bar worked into a laurel crown, as archaeologically attested. (See Robinson and Feugère).<br>
The fact is that as we progress it appears more and more that the Roman army was indeed massively armoured and that the types of armour were more diversified than previously thought. Like that hirtherto unknown pair of iron plate shoulder guards apparently attached to a mail coat, shown with the excellent pics of the Guttman collection. <p></p><i></i>