Javelins

[hoplite14gr]

800 B.C. Homers time elite fighters cast javelins and charge with swords.
Yet packed ranks with spears resist even mighty lords.
1. Homer HILIAD 22 131-133, 145-150

Until 700 B.C most hoplites were aristocrats or elite retinues who could afford training in both javelin and spear.
Italiotic colonists made extensive use of mercenary native peltasts.

As gradually the hoplites are being not just men at arms but militia simpler tactics were a necessity.

What we have found out Christian is that most violent movements like missile casting can not be performed in "synaspismos". Hope that tip helps you.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

We can try throwing them in Marathon BUT,we need to have them looped,

We often see a pair of spears in older images, usually one longer and thicker than the other. I would assume a spear (shorter than a dory with no sauroter) and javelin, but oddly on the Chigi vase, both have throwing loops! A detail like this makes me wonder if the artist is just trying to reconcile the fact that in his day they used a single dory with the knowledge that in earlier times they used a pair of javelins.

This does not mean that they never threw one spear and held another, simply that it occured prior to the era of our vase depictions. I would expect a step such as that in the evolution of the hoplite.

plus we need to train the hoplites on how to throw them with kit on and safely,

Aww, but those injuries are so informative :wink:

plus it requires that the shields and their porpax and especially antilabe are in the correct depth,place,lenght,otherwise one will say that he cannot hold his spear with the left hand,the other will say that its uncomfortable or that it hurts,and another that he couldn't target correctly. These are proven to be vital points on how you hold a spear with the left hand while carryng a shield.

I'd like to know that too. All the antilabes I have seen are too loose in my opinion. When the distance between antilabe and porpax is increased and used in conjunction with a proper inner sleeve for the porpax- even a wrapped cloak as often seen- the aspis could fit tight to the upper forearm in exactly the same manner as a modern artifical arm fits over the stump of the remaining arm. This would greatly increase the dexterity of the shield bearer and minimize the pivoting of the aspis around the forearm.

Then we would know if the hand could still hold a javelin or if a hoplite had to hold the aspis via the porpax alone if something must be held in the left hand.

[Gregg]

The Chigi vase was created around 640 BC. Around the same time (between 680 and 640 BC) both Archilochos of Paros and Callinus of Ephesus were writing songs about battle that made reference to javelins (and other missile weapons). Here are some examples:


...and let every man, as he dies, hurl his javelin one last time.

--------

Remember us, remember this earth,
When, with hearts against despair
Our javelins held Thasos from her enemy.

--------

There are other shields to be had,
But not under the spear-hail
of an artillery attack,
In the hot work of slaughtering,
Among the dry racket of the javelins,
Neither seeing nor hearing.

--------

Pallas Athena and our strong arms,
That victory. From hill to hill in retreat
We walked backward under their javelins
Until we reached the rampart of stones
She, Zeus's daughter, led us toward.
We attacked later, chanting hymns
Of Mytilenian Apollo, while they,
Keeping their courage with harp and song
Fell back to their hill, withered by arrows
We crossed a harvest of our dead.

--------

When the fight's with those Euboians,
No bow-strings' whine or snap of bow-notch
Or whip of sling do you hear, but a delirium
Of Ares, sword work and spear sticking,
The tall Euboians famous for their knives.


This last, from Archilochos, suggests that missiles were common on the battlefield, but that the Euboians were unusual bad-asses because they eschewed missiles for close combat weapons, specifically swords (mentioned first) and thrusting spears.

[Kineas]

Historians often seek to simplify the complex. I think it's possible that Greek warriors, like all warriors, had a variety of solutions to a variety of tactical problems. Just as an example, I think it would be fairly easy to demonstrate that "Hoplites" serving as marines on shipboard were hurling javelins in 480 BC and even later--whatever they were doing in the phalanx. We tend to concentrate our thoughts on the "day of decisive battle" for our image of the hoplite--but there were a great many other days, especially as the business of war became more common and professional.

I recommend reading the intro essays (and the rest!) of the Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare. Not that most of the folks on this list don't already know all they have to say--just that it is interesting to have re-stated how little we KNOW.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Our greater knowlege is when we know our knowlege is so LITTLE.
Now Gregg,it would be nice if you had the original text of those poems and tell us what are the exact words when the translator wrote "javelins" "spears" and such. Thanks for posting this.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

Thanks Gregg, excellent resources. The only question I have is if we can be sure that in each case it is hoplites who are doing the javelin throwing.

For instance, do you have more context for these two to know he is specifically talking of hoplites and not a seperate force of Javelineers. Tyrtaeos also speaks of missile troops, but as something seperate from the hoplites.

...and let every man, as he dies, hurl his javelin one last time.

--------

Remember us, remember this earth,
When, with hearts against despair
Our javelins held Thasos from her enemy.

[Kineas]

Slightly off topic...

So, a friend and I met Saturday and threw javelins for a couple of hours. it's one of those "an hour to learn, a lifetime to master" pastimes. With many parallels to rifle shooting...
Fil brought four modern Olympic javelins. We figured that as we were starting, we should learn with the easiest and best designed weapons.
We threw for about forty minutes from various stances and with both 3 and 5 step run-ups. All very interesting--max throw range with any power was bout 35 meters, and we couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. About one hit per ten throws, and the target was a stack of three standard hay bales. By the time we were done, we had some serious questions about the utility of the javelin.
Then we decided to use thongs. Now, Fil demonstrated in ten seconds that my whole picture of how to use the thong--based on looking at vases--was all wet. It is truly funny how you can over complicate something... anyway, with the help of disassembled frizzen cover thongs (all the rev war folks will know just what I mean) we produced enough throwing loops, or thongs, for four javelins.
The difference was immediate and devastating. Our range was increased by at least 25%, and the power of the throws was, I'd say, doubled. Equally important, the number of hits at range went from 1 per 5 (Fil) or 1 per 10 (me) to more like 3 for 5 for both. Further experimentation showed that by tieing the thongs more loosely we could adjust the javelins for high plunging fire or long flat fire with a second's twitch of the hand.
I have to say (and this is the part of the experiments that pertains to hoplites) that javelins thrown high and cast to fall almost straight down would be incredibly deadly, and such plunging fire, while possible with a bow, would be very difficult to direct, whereas with javelins it is easy--and murderous. A plunging javelin thrown fromt he fourth rank would go right through a helmet.
My opinion of the javelin as a missile weapon is forever changed. At 25 meters, a group of men with even moderate training would wreak havoc on a hoplite phalanx--even a single volley coming almost straight down would be dangerous. And close packed men (most especially, anyone foolish enough to be in a close-packed othismos) would be meat.
A flat throw could penetrate a hay bale, and we suspected that it would punch right through an aspis faced in bronze. In a few weeks we'll test that. A plunging throw--well, it had even more power.
And these were just 600 gram javelins. Wait 'til I build some heavy javelins.
Perhaps the most remarkable effect of the thongs was the effect it had on casts made from a stand. With no loop, you get almost no power standing still, and if you spread your legs and clench your knees like a man on horseback, it's hard just to throw. But with a loop--suddenly you can throw the same distance whether you run or walk or stand still, give or take a few paces. So... a cavalryman can throw almost as well as an infantryman (in a few weeks I'll test this live, of course, with Ridglely, on horseback.)
Anyway...overall, tremendous fun, and something we can do anywhere we drill or do public demonstration!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

My experiance with loops(even very crude and inaccurate ones) was the same surprising.much increased power and range. But I can't post any results until I make accurate javelins. Kineas,have you got any photos of your javelins?
Khaire
Giannis

[Kineas]

Giannis, these were modern Olympic javelins in the medium weight class. However, I'm building six--one big bronze head, one with a cavalry head that's quite heavy, and several with various smaller heads including one with a VERY small bronze head. The shafts will vary, too--the small steel heads will have 4 foot shafts, while the bronze gets the same and the cavalry head gets a six foot shaft. Illustrations when some are complete, I promise. Tonight I finished my second arming cap (for Dan--he's making the shields!)

The bronze heads are actual copies, the steel heads are all somewhat generic, except the cavalry head which is a copy from an archaeological dig from Manning Imperial.

I promise another report, with photos, when the real javs are complete.

[Dan Howard]

IMO the only thing we can really say is that whenever a warrior is depicted with two spears in an illustration then at least one of them was intended for throwing.

[Gregg]

Sorry it took so long to reply...

Gianis, I understand your desire for the original text, it would certainly help the argument. If it was Latin I'd be all over it, but Greek is far too daunting to me :oops: .

Paul, nothing in the writings of Archilochos or Callinus suggests either is referring to separate groups of fighters. Tyrtaeos, however, was writing some time later. This is significant because at around this time Greek art seems for the most part to stop showing hoplites equipped with two spears, but only the one. It is tempting therefore to suggest that some time after 640, maybe after the last quarter of the 7th century, the use of the spear as a throwing weapon went out of style, and the role of "heavy" close combat fighters and "light" missile troops became more distinct.

However it also seems that even if the two groups were becoming more distinct, their respective positions on the field of battle were not. Greek forces still seemed to be one big disorganized group, with missile troops and heavy hoplites all mixed up together.

Gregg

[hoplite14gr]

However it also seems that even if the two groups were becoming more distinct, their respective positions on the field of battle were not. Greek forces still seemed to be one big disorganized group, with missile troops and heavy hoplites all mixed up together.

Gregg

Not really Homer talk of the Epeioi who from the boats and behind the heavy armored fighters were decimating the Trojans almost unseen in the battle for the ships. So tactical destinction was known from 800 B.C.

Also though I partly agree with Dans post, Xenophon in his "Anabasis" talks of the Chaldeoi who carry two dorata (spears). We can only speculate that the one was for throwing.

Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

At the risk of stating the obvious, it is worth bearing in mind that true javelins, the kind that go any sort of distance and that a man can carry several of, generally have smallish heads, socket diameters less than 15 mm, tend to be 3-4 ft (1-1.3 m) long and have no butts.....
'Short' spears, which can be thrown or used hand-to-hand tend to be somewhat larger, at 5-6 ft,(1.5-1.75m) and again don't usually have butts ( e.g. the longche of Macedonia, or the 'spears' on the Chigi vase)
The 'long' spear, or 'fighting' spear/Great spear/dory is typically rather taller than a man (generally 7-8 feet (2.1- 2.4 m), has a socket diameter of at least 18mm, often 20-25 mm( 3/4-1 inch) and usually ( always?) has a counter-balancing butt,and often has a binding for better grip.
These respective features can be helpful when trying to decide what exactly is being depicted.....

[Dan Howard]

The Romans carried two pila of differing sizes. Both were thrown but when in a defensive formation the heavier one was retained and used in a shield wall as a thrusting spear. Why can't the Greek spears also have a dual purpose?

[Kineas]

I'm with you, Dan.

Also, I spent many years in Africa in the military. I've watched a Kenyan Masai throw an 8 foot spear with a massive iron head. I couldn't tell you how far he threw it, but he didn't seem to show much effort (he's in the same kind of shape as a Hoplite!) and the spear went well over fifty meters and hit exactly where he said it would.

I can throw my Rev War spontoon (an original) with both elan and accuracy. It has a cross bar and a heavy head in a leaf shape, and long tassets of iron coming down to protect the shaft--it weighs a ton. It is also a little over 6 feet long. I can throw it quite a ways.

My point here is that a trained spear thrower can throw anything. I'm with Paul that lighter javelins have more use from a distance, but a heavy spear can be thrown with immense power at shorter ranges.

My dad (a former and lifelong athlete) says that there's a study out there saying that a thrown spear generates more power and has more kinetic energy than one used int he hand, in terms of hitting power. That's would seem logical.

Do I have a point? If I do, it would be that you can throw a dory--or anything else--and I'd be really hesitant about making the buttspike the touchstone. How many guys had them? Do we really know? Or do we just like to think they all had them? I'll note that in early 5th C. illustrations (ARW), I haven't found one yet (I'm SURE Paul will now show me some. This is all a tactic to save myself research).