Javelins

[Pericles of Rhodes]

I thought I should start a new thread rather than interrupting the other one!

(Quote taken from ‘Hoplites of the Archaic Age’ thread - Paul M. Bardunias)

van Wees (Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities, 2004) argues at some length for the Boiotian shield being quite historical. Definitely worth reading, he has a lot of unorthodox but interesting ideas about the evolution of hioplite warfare.

Van Wees puts far too much faith in vase imagery in my opinion. He accepts highly stylized images, often of mythic heroes whom the audience knew fought by throwing their spears, as accurate for the tactics of the day.

I thought I heard somewhere else on the forum (can’t remember exactly where now) that ‘early’ hoplites fought by throwing javelins and then engaged at close quarters with swords. I know Homer mentions a lot of javelin throwing by heroes during the battles but whether this is harking back to the Mycenaean way of war or the tactics of his own period I don’t know. Could someone enlighten me?

The social shift between regarding the javelin as a heroic weapon to one of the lowest of the low used by peasants, as in the 4th Century BC, must have been dramatic. When did this happen (if it did! )?

Does anyone know when the phalanx was invented? Is the Chigi vase the first evidence? I presume this would be when most of the javelin-armed hoplites began to disappear.

Long after it was adopted some city states (as Stefanos mentioned in my round peltast shield topic) could not afford a whole phalanx of hoplites or the terrain made it difficult to use so I gather they used open order hoplites. Would they have used javelins? I have seen at least one painting that suggests they did.

Any help would be great

[Sean Manning]

Interestingly enough, the Chigi Vase hoplites still carry a pair of spears. Its a reasonable assumption that they threw one before contact, like Norse and Germanic shield walls in the Early Middle Ages. I expect that the custom of carrying throwing spears died out shortly after then.

[hoplite14gr]

Thing start from the Bronze Age. Truth is we do not know musch of the troops and tactics. But it seems (and we rely quite a lot on Homer for this) that there was a combination of pike armed infantry and archers. Aristokrats with heavy armor would disembark from chariots cast heavy javelins and charge with swords. If the infantry was not shake or desperate the primitive phalanx could resist them.
As the "Dark Age" came a combination of heavily armed fighters and horsemen (Kentavr legents) seem to dominate the battlefield.

Ad-hoc spear block limited the use of cavalry. Yet seems that they were not confident to resist almost catafract foot soldiers.

Semi-legendary king Pheidon in the early archaic age is thought to have transformed the spear groups in an offensive weapon.
The tight phalanx prohibited the use of javelins from the ranxs but carried everything infront of it. That in effect limited the importance of javelineers light armed or heavily armed and nagated the superiority of aristokratic "martial artists"

Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks very much Sean and Stefanos! That’s one hole in my knowledge filled!

Semilegendary king Pheidon in the early archaic age is thought to have transformed the spear groups in an offensive weapon.
The tight phalanx prohibitied the use of javelins from the ranxs but carried everything infrond of it. That in effect limited the importance of javelineers light armed or heavily armed and nagated the superiority of aristokratic "martial artists"

I take it, from your description, that this king Pheidon changed the infantry’s formation from a more basic, looser shield wall, into the Phalanx. Do you have a date for this or any sources that this statement is based on? That would be very interesting. Thank you!

I assume javelins would still be used by the open order hoplites I have heard about, though no doubt they would be unable to stand against a phalanx for long!

[hoplite14gr]

Pheidon is dated -depending on source and interpretation-round 750 B.C.

Yes you are right of co-existance of open and close order hoplites.
The last such battle probably was the Lelantine War.
Open order hoplites were probably crashed by Thessalian Cavalry.

Spartans and Messenians fought open order in the 1st Messenian War.
In 669 B.C. the Argives smashed the Spartans with their tighpacked phalanx at Hysiae. Spartans converted to close order drill at once.

The last to convert were Locrians, Phocians and Epirots

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

I thought I heard somewhere else on the forum (can’t remember exactly where now) that ‘early’ hoplites fought by throwing javelins and then engaged at close quarters with swords.

I think the other guys missed this comment. Early Hoplites, as on the Chigi, may have carried a spear and javelin or two multipurpose spears- in the way that later cavalry could carry two multipurpose spears. if they did, they threw one spear and engaged with the other. I know of no evidence that they threw Both spears and engaged with swords. This is unlikely, and swords were always a back-up weapon to be used when and if the spear was broken or rendered useless.

Exactly why they discarded the throwing spear is unclear. Surely the supremacy of shock is the heart of the reason, but Romans fought in close order after throwing javelins. Perhaps the Javelin was simply not so effective against the heavy armor that Hoplites were beginning to become encased in and getting close without the disorder of a volley was more important. We surely see some specialization- men in battle lines and others who throw things- which could account for the loss. From every reenactor I have spoken with it is difficult or impossible to effectively hold a second spear and the antilabe of an aspis- if there is enough play in the grip to hold the spear, then it is probably too loose for fighting.

Thus the aspis itself may have been the demise of the second spear and the Chigi anachronistic.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Agree with Paul. However I wouldn't be quick to say that the Chigi is anachronistic(I know Paul,not even you said this). Its one of the first depictions of Phalanx and changes in the fighting from then onwards we know that happened. A strange thing in those spears is that although differ in length, both of them have a throwing loop! The double spear may suggest that even at that point the phalanx was looser,like a roman phalanx,lets say with barely touching shields,whereas later the shields were normally overlapping. Pure speculation this is.
By the way, I tried the loop to throw a stick. I can't say officially my results,but I was indeed surprised by what I saw. I didn't use accurate shaft or length or point,but i did hold it like the paintings show. I threw it with the thong in about 40m distance. Although it was very windy and the shaft ridiculously light,the flight was very smooth. I couldn't reach 10 meters without the thong,and the flight was not straight at all. Perhaps because of the wind.(remember,I tried it in Thrace,famous for its wind). Even contra the wind the flight was considerably strong and straight.
So I achieved 4 times stronger flight,but as I said I can't draw conclusions until I make accurate javelins.
Anyone know what I could use for javelin heads? Perhaps make them on my own?
Khairete
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks very much to everyone for your comments!

The last to convert were Locrians, Phocians and Epirots

Do you know roughly when any of these converted to the phalanx system? It would be nice to get a rough time frame.

Yes you are right of co-existance of open and close order hoplites.

I don’t suppose you know of any literary sources I can look up for information on the loose order hoplites do you. Especially their use in the 5th C BC (as you mentioned in the Round Peltast shields thread) by those states that could not afford phalanxes. It would be interesting to learn more about these, lesser known, soldiers. I assume they would have thrown javelins as well as used spears as in earlier times as they where in open order, and could.

[hoplite14gr]

Most people based on Herodotus and Pauasanias descritption of the difficulty Phokians faced with the Thessalian cavalry belive they were mostly psiloi or open order hoplites until 450 B.C.
Probalt these is true as they were overwhelemd by Persian arrows in Annopaia. Hopllites were ussually "arrow-resistant".
During the 4th century religious wars Phokians maintained Cavalry, hoplites, elite peltasts and probably artillery by exploiting the money of the Delphic Oracle.

Epirotes had good light infantry and supplied Corinthians with javelineers, slingers and archers.
Epirotes accoring to Thukidides were converted to heavy infantry by the Molossian king Tharypas by 420 B.C. who organized cities from villages.
Tharypas and Alexander of the Molossians are for Epeiros the equivalent of Philip II for Macedonia.

Pottery in the British Museum shows hoplites fighting against Amazons and have both Beotian and Round shields
Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Ah, that would make sense, as it was specifically the Phokians who guarded the mountain path that the Persians used to out flank the Greeks at Thermopylae. I assume this is because in open order they would be better suited to fighting on rough terrain, and less useful in flat terrain battle.

[hoplite14gr]

A unit of lighly armed troops with a few "ekdromoi class" hoplites could easily be leveled by archery. Both Phokians and Leonidas are to blame for not fortifying the cursed place even with earthworks.

Actually classical Central Greek armies are not so well known as the more "glamorous" hoplite troops of Argos, Athens and Sparta.

The soil in mountainous areas yielded a thin living and the only important maritime cities were leveled in the Archaic Holy War (Kirra). Hoplite warfare was an expensive bussiness and hillmen took long time to convert.

The Epirotans created phalanx after King Tharypas settled them in cities round 420 B.C.

Kind regards.

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks Stefanos, your knowledge is much appreciated! That’s made things a lot clearer.

[Kineas]

Just to be a heretic,

The mainstream takes for granted that the progression was smooth--jevelins to spears to a single spear to the Macedonian long spear. But...
In Magna Graeca and the rest of Italy, the 'hoplite" never really seems to have given up the javelin. And as far as I can tell (and I did some Etruscans stuff many years ago, so my knowledge may be dated) the Etruscans never gave up the javelin--they converted it to the Pilum. So you have a phalanx--the Greeks called it a phalanx, the major historians call the guys in it "hoplites" who transition from throwing javelins to throwing pila... and then fighting hand to hand with a heavy spear.
This is the sort of thing that reenactors can help with by experimentation, because we may find that even pretty late in Archaic times, the Greeks fired a volley of heavy javs at point blank--the tactic that the Etruscans seem to have used to break up a Celtic charge and that seems to have become the Roman tactic.
Now, having left myself wide open, Paul or someone will come along and say "we haven't believed any of that for twenty years" and I'll be put in my place.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The thing is,we don't know exactly how hoplites fought even in the very early classical age. Depictions of phalanx are very rare,and the archaic pottery mostly deals with heroic scenes,where the javelin was a standard. On the other hand,the Chigi vase(7thc bc) shows the hoplites with a spear and a javelin. In fact,in the Chigi vase both apear to have had loops(!). So everything is open. Of cource,Herodotus who is the first to dercribe a battle with hoplites,does not mention the throwing of javelins in the early 5th century.
So what is your Heresy,Kineas? Are you assuming the hoplites kept throwing javelins in Greece,or only in South Italy? We can try throwing them in Marathon BUT,we need to have them looped,plus we need to train the hoplites on how to throw them with kit on and safely,plus it requires that the shields and their porpax and especially antilabe are in the correct depth,place,lenght,otherwise one will say that he cannot hold his spear with the left hand,the other will say that its uncomfortable or that it hurts,and another that he couldn't target correctly. These are proven to be vital points on how you hold a spear with the left hand while carryng a shield.
Khaire
Giannis

[Kineas]

I think you understand me perfectly, Giannis. I want to TRY all that stuff.

Tow or three of us will have aspides in a couple of weeks, and my first Javelin is in the works, copied from one at Delphi.