Greek writings of Celtic names...

[Folkert van Wijk]

I dont'think this is the best place for my question, but I think i will reach the most "Greeks" here... :wink:

At the moment I'm trying to com up with a Celtic name. The Celts wrote there names (when they did) in foreign characters... For example with the Greek alphabet.

I have found a Celtic name on a Celtic sword from around 60 BC written with the Greek alphabet and it go's like this: KOPICIOC, with translates now adays into Korisios...
the second part of my name will be the name of my "father" That I have taken from Caesar's "The Gallic wars" and that will be ORGETORIX, (which is probably written the Roman way) because my persona and also the sword are from Swiss.
The third part of my name will be my tribe that I have found written with Etruscan characters on a piece of pottery and go's like this: ELUVEITIE. Meaning "from the Helvetiers"

Now my question is: if i want to be consequent in writing my name with the Greek alphabet, how would ORGETORIX ans ELUVETIE look like???

Would the Etruscan Alphabet be similar to the Greek one??

[hoplite14gr]

ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞ ΑΝΣ ΕΛYΒΕΤΙΕ

Usefull link:
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tayl0010/letters ... etpos2.htm


Kind regards

[Folkert van Wijk]

ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞ ΑΝΣ ΕΛYΒΕΤΙΕ

8)
Ha! that's cool! Thanks Hoplite.
And thanks for the link. :wink:

[KaesoOtacillianus]

If I may barge in, the rendering hoplite14gr supplied obeys the rules of Modern Greek spelling, where "B" for example is pronounced "V". You may notice, for example, that in your rendering of the name "Korisios" the letter used is the so-called "lunar sigma": C, whereas in hoplite's version the letter is the Classic Athenian and Modern Greek "Σ".

Also, "Orgetorix" is a Nominative. If you intend that to be the name of the father, then it should be - in all probability - in the Genitive case. I still need to check, but I think the Genitive ending for consonantical themes is "-is" (just like in Latin).

You must also bear in mind that the Ancients had little concern for transliteration or phonetical accuracy when dealing with words from foreign languages. The fact that the Etruscans wrote "ELUVEITIE" is but a vague indication of what the Helvetii themselves pronounced. From this point of view, the Latin "Helvetii" is probably closer to the truth, since Latin and Celtic are part of the same group within the large Indo-European family, whereas Etruscan is not.

[Folkert van Wijk]

If I may barge in, the rendering hoplite14gr supplied obeys the rules of Modern Greek spelling, where "B" for example is pronounced "V". You may notice, for example, that in your rendering of the name "Korisios" the letter used is the so-called "lunar sigma": C, whereas in hoplite's version the letter is the Classic Athenian and Modern Greek "Σ".

Also, "Orgetorix" is a Nominative. If you intend that to be the name of the father, then it should be - in all probability - in the Genitive case. I still need to check, but I think the Genitive ending for consonantical themes is "-is" (just like in Latin).

You must also bear in mind that the Ancients had little concern for transliteration or phonetical accuracy when dealing with words from foreign languages. The fact that the Etruscans wrote "ELUVEITIE" is but a vague indication of what the Helvetii themselves pronounced. From this point of view, the Latin "Helvetii" is probably closer to the truth, since Latin and Celtic are part of the same group within the large Indo-European family, whereas Etruscan is not.

Yes please do barge Cristian :wink:

Indeed I do need the ancient Greek writing...
Considering Greek and Latin and Etruscan writings, I am just about as ignorant as the Celts in those day's I didn't even notice the two different letters for C so the little word ΑΝΣ is supposed to be ANC with a "moon letter" ? And ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞ is supposed to be something like ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞIC or ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙC??

Then yes I do also suspect that the Etruscan "ELUVEITIE" is just the Etruscan way of reproducing the sound of the Celtic word...

And interesting to know that Etruscan is a total different language group..

So thanks for the extra info, and yes please do give me the genitive ending if you can find it... That would be most epreciated

[hoplite14gr]

Well I do not know how the Etruscans would pronounce and the pronounciation of ancient Greek is a debate.

Truth is that I though of the phrase as a Greek because Greeks of the time would refer to Folkert as ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞ Ο ΕΛΒΕΤΟΣ (Orgetorix the Helbetian) or ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞ ΤΩΝ ΕΛΒΕΤΩΝ (Orgetorix of the Helbetoi)

Cristian offered a very useful insight and I for my self I confess ignorance on how Celts would pronounce

Kind regards

[KaesoOtacillianus]

I'm glad you have found my brief comments useful :wink:

When I talked about "Etruscan" pronunciation or "Greek" pronunciation, I was not simply referring to the fact that Platon pronounced "B" and "AI" where a contemporary Greek pronounces "V" and "E", but to the fact that ancients in general took little trouble to record faithfully the words of their neighbours. For example, they called "Dareios" a Persian king whose real name would be spelled somewhat closer to "Darayavaus" and "Artaxerxes" a man whose name was "Arta-Khshatra".

Regarding the spelling in Greek and the difference in the shapes of letters (C vs. Σ), this is not just a phenomenon of evolution in time, but also a matter of geographical position: Greeks from different cities would use different alphabets, called epichoric (local) alphabets. There is an image around here in the "Greek" forum showing a few examples. My point is that you should probably aim at consistency. If your Korisios chose to spell his name with lunar sigma (in the form KOPICIOC), than he would certainly use this form of the letter elsewhere as well, for example in ANC.

Regarding the ending -is: let me go to the library sometime next week and grab hold of the Celtic manual (is is a rather antiquated book, but has some easy-to-use tables. I'm sure knowledge has progressed much since the publication of the book and other people may give you more accurate - or at least more modern - advice in the matter). The way Indo-European languages work is that they add "endings" to "stems"/"roots". For example, in Orgetorix (I'll use Latin alphabet for more clarity), one can identify the stem Orgetorig- (itself a compound of Orgeto- and rig-) and the ending -s (Nominative animate). So, in order to obtain the Genitive, one should add the specific ending (let's say, for now - is) to the stem: Orgetorigis.

Let me warn you, though, before you use this form, that I am not absolutely certain about the Celtic root (if it ends in -c or in -g), nor about the ending. :lol:

[Urselius]

You might want to use the "son of" designation. Especially as it was very common in later Celtic naming conventions - ie mac and map.

Presuming the Hevetii to have been "P Celtic" then "mapo" or "mapos" would seem to be the most accurate.

"Tincomius mapo Cunemori"?

[Folkert van Wijk]

I'm glad you have found my brief comments useful :wink:

When I talked about "Etruscan" pronunciation or "Greek" pronunciation, I was not simply referring to the fact that Platon pronounced "B" and "AI" where a contemporary Greek pronounces "V" and "E", but to the fact that ancients in general took little trouble to record faithfully the words of their neighbours. For example, they called "Dareios" a Persian king whose real name would be spelled somewhat closer to "Darayavaus" and "Artaxerxes" a man whose name was "Arta-Khshatra".

Regarding the spelling in Greek and the difference in the shapes of letters (C vs. Σ), this is not just a phenomenon of evolution in time, but also a matter of geographical position: Greeks from different cities would use different alphabets, called epichoric (local) alphabets. There is an image around here in the "Greek" forum showing a few examples. My point is that you should probably aim at consistency. If your Korisios chose to spell his name with lunar sigma (in the form KOPICIOC), than he would certainly use this form of the letter elsewhere as well, for example in ANC.

Regarding the ending -is: let me go to the library sometime next week and grab hold of the Celtic manual (is is a rather antiquated book, but has some easy-to-use tables. I'm sure knowledge has progressed much since the publication of the book and other people may give you more accurate - or at least more modern - advice in the matter). The way Indo-European languages work is that they add "endings" to "stems"/"roots". For example, in Orgetorix (I'll use Latin alphabet for more clarity), one can identify the stem Orgetorig- (itself a compound of Orgeto- and rig-) and the ending -s (Nominative animate). So, in order to obtain the Genitive, one should add the specific ending (let's say, for now - is) to the stem: Orgetorigis.

Let me warn you, though, before you use this form, that I am not absolutely certain about the Celtic root (if it ends in -c or in -g), nor about the ending. :lol:

So.. what about "KOPICIOS OPGETOPIGIC HELVETII"??? :? ?

Or is there an other way of writing HELVETII (the Helvetiër) in Greek??

[hoplite14gr]

OI ΕΛΒΕΤΟI = plural for the Helvetians (and modern Swiss) in Greek


KOPICIOS is boy or young man?

because KOROS = boy or young man in the Homeric epics

And there is a tablet from the Bronze Age with the word KOPICIOS asociated with people who spoke the Aeolic dialect.

Seems that European languages were closer than we might thing.


Thanks for the input Folkert


Kind regards

[Folkert van Wijk]

You might want to use the "son of" designation. Especially as it was very common in later Celtic naming conventions - ie mac and map.

Presuming the Hevetii to have been "P Celtic" then "mapo" or "mapos" would seem to be the most accurate.

"Tincomius mapo Cunemori"?

Thanks, mapo sounds ok, then how would a ancient Greek wo spels Korisisos like KOPICIOC, spel MAPO??

[Folkert van Wijk]

OI ΕΛΒΕΤΟI = plural for the Helvetians (and modern Swiss) in Greek

was this Λ used in ancient writings?

[hoplite14gr]

was this Λ used in ancient writings?

And what about "from te helvetians" or "the helvetiër"
How would they write that, also "OI ΕΛΒΕΤΟI"?

ΛAKEDAIMON :wink:

In Greek if it is any help (plural form)

Nominative: OI ΕΛΒΕΤΟI
Genetive: ΤΩΝ ΕΛΒΕΤΩΝ
Dative: ΤOIS ΕΛΒΕΤOIS
Accusative ΤOYS ΕΛΒΕΤOYS
Calling form ΕΛΒΕΤΟI!

Hope it helps

[Folkert van Wijk]

And what about "mapo" or "map" in ancient greek?

[Komanos]

in ancient greek helvetii would be ΕΛΟΥΕΤΟΙ

in nominative case, as your name:
ΚΟΡΙCIOC ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΧΟC ΕΛΟΥΕΤΟC

or alternatively:
ΚΟΡΙCIOC ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΓΟC ΕΛΟΥΕΤΟC

and if its being inscribed on a weapon, you might use the genitive:
KOPICIOY OPΓETOPIΓOS TWN EΛOYETWN

and I suppose if you wanted to do the son of bit:

KOPICIOC MAP ΟΡΓΕΤΟΡΙΞ ΕΛΟΥΕΤΟC