How to Test A Scutum

[Hibernicus]

All things being equal:
...... a scutum made as historically accurate as the experts (expert experts! you know.. guys with extra letters after their names) say it is. Being experts we accept their assertion.
...... weapons to test the scutum meeting the same criteria.

How would [size=150:116sz3r2]you [/size]test the scutum;
- what would you want to see
- what circumstances, parameters etc etc

[marsvigilia]

How does it hold up to being burried in desert sand for a couple thousand years. Just for comparrison of course.

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

Well, for my part, I'd like the scutum hacked at with spathae and other long blades sported by Rome's enemies...and stabbed at by gladii and pelted with pila sported by other Romans, who'd be doing it back in the day. Same deal with sling stones and bullets, kicks from caligae, punching things with it, etc.

Also, effects of the weather...painted with what the experts understand to be period paints, and carried about covered or not, in rain, fog, midsummer sun, desert nights...the sorts of climates the legions marched in.

Now this would pre-suppose a group or individual who wouldn't mind putting all that work and resources into a scutum only to test in semi battle conditions, which means kicking the crap out of it in replicated ways. I'm not scientist, but I think this would also include the amount of force put out by the average man in those days, weight of the weapons used, angles of the blows, etc.

But yeah, I would be interested in seeing the results of such an experiment. I've been wondering how a Deepeeka scutum would hold up to a crazed beefcake with a broad sword trying to kill the guy holding it. Just out of curiousity.

[marsvigilia]

I've been wondering how a Deepeeka scutum would hold up to a crazed beefcake with a broad sword trying to kill the guy holding it.

It might depend on whether said crazed beefcake was wielding a Deepeeka spatha.

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

LOL! It might also depend on if the beefcake was using a Hattori Hanzo spatha! (sorry couldn't resist the Kill Bill quip)

That would be another thing to take into account. The type and quality of the weapons or objects the shields' users would be defending against. I can also think of friction from any plausible carrying method against the handle of the shield, I'm sure I could come up with more but then, I tend to be over analytical

[sulla felix]

a scutum made as historically accurate as the experts (expert experts! you know.. guys with extra letters after their names) say it is. Being experts we accept their assertion.

Always a bit wary of people described as "experts". An old college lecturer once gave his definition of an expert - ex=nothing and a spurt is just a drip under pressure. That definition has stayed with me and served me quite well over the years.

As to the testing - not really much use without some kind of terms of reference (baseline data), but sounds very interesting.

[Libitina]

kicking the crap out of it

I think that summed up what I thought

[M. Demetrius]

Well, we'd need to know if it could be ridden down a flight of stone stairs while the owner looses a horde of arrows, like Legolas did. A scutum that can do that is worth extra denarii!

[sulla felix]

Well, we'd need to know if it could be ridden down a flight of stone stairs while the owner looses a horde of arrows, like Legolas did. A scutum that can do that is worth extra denarii!

But wouldn't the umbo get in the way?

[M. Demetrius]

Maybe that's the way you'd steer, by rocking one way or the other on the umbo?

[SOCL]

:lol: :lol:
This is hilarious!


Really, though, what are you aiming for? I think I addressed this exact same question in another thread, but we don't really have a "historic" standard to test against. We have no idea how long a scuta was meant to survive--maybe Romans replaced them every year or so? We have no idea how many arrows a real one was supposed to hold against, though there's that line in Caesar's Civil Wars about the hundred or whatever holes (again, discussed in another thread), but what kind of holes were they? Termites?

At risk of sounding deconstructive, what's really the point of testing replica scuta? Have intentions using them as protection against the coming zombie apocalypse? (and we all know it's coming, right?) Seriously, though, I think without a historic standard to test against, a lot of this is rather moot. We're reduced to vague terms like "durable", "weather-resistant", and "barbarian-proof".

[Nerva]

Ah, this is something we at Legion Ireland have plenty of experience with. We started using the Deepeeka Scuta. They are made from 3 layers of 4mm ply (12mm in total - very thick) and finished with light linen.

We have put them through many a battle getting pounded by sword, axe, pikes and being kicked many times. We got about a season out of our Deepeeka scuta. That's about 15 events, totalling about 25 hours of combat against such weapons. I reckon they should last longer though. Unfortunately we let ours get wet.

First the brass edging goes - this is bloody dangerous in the first place as it's more likely to cause the user an injury. We replaced this with rawhide. Then the umbo goes, crap umbo anyway. Eventually the back breaks and it's useless after that. Actually, the back supports fly off first!

We now make and use our own Scuta. Two layers of 4mm ply. Surface hardened with twin pack worktop hardener. Then we apply a 2mm thick linen covering. We use steel umbones (2-3mm thick) and rawhide edging. We get about one and a half to two seasons out of these - about 50hrs. Axe's are the worst offenders and you need a good scutum to stand up to a few good belts from these - or else get your wrist broken like me!

So, to answer you your question, just come over to us for a training week-end and we'll show you how to test a scutum :lol:

It's all fine until somebody gets hurt, then it's bloody marvelous :lol:

[Mark Headlee]

Ave Fraters,

All interesting and I can see the merits of testing, but how about this "idea". Could it be that the scutum was not meant to be as tough as some want to believe? Could this item have been made cheaply, to be used and replaced as needed.

I am only guessing here, but would there be dangers to both the soldier and his mess mates in using an item damaged in battle (or in daily wear and tear) or the time, effort, and money in repair, or would it be just easier to issue a new one?

I can see a soldier being "issued" many over his time in service, as compared to taking care of only one.

Just a guess?

[SOCL]

Mark Headlee and I seem to share the same perspective on this matter.

If durability is an issue, I and everyone who went to Mobile (Feb 07) can personally attest to the fact that scuta are not are durable as the human neck. The scuta that got between my neck and the dirt cracked and broke before my spinal chord gave way. :lol:

But was it meant to be that strong or that weak? :|

[Nerva]

Very good point. Personally, I find it hard to believe an ancient scutum would have been any more durable than our modern reproductions. We use modern plywood (Marine ply) and wood hardening resin compounds, high quality linen and leather, none of which were widely available to our ancient brothers (certainly not the ply and resin anyway), so I think it's fairly safe to say they would not have lasted any longer (say 40 hours of actual combat).

BUT, how many legionaries actually saw 40 hours of actual combat in a year? So I guess some shields just fell apart due to old age and some due to combat exposure and old age. And of course some never made it out of thier first battle