Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Been reading some good books latley
#1
Centurian by David Stewart, Signed copy
Emperor series by Conn Iggulden.
VM Manfredi..Empire of the Dragons
Gladiatrix by Russell Whitfield
Just started Eagles Prophecy Simon Scarrow
Im going cross eyed Confusedhock:
Mike Carroll.
LEGIIAVG

Dying aint much of a living.
Reply
#2
Just finished The Persian Expedition by Xenophon

Currently reading Rome & Jerusalem The Clash of Ancient Civilizations by Martin Goodman

About halfway through and while it is loaded with all manner of interesting info I must say it is not exactly what I had expected. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I will reserve judgment until I get trough the fall of Jerusalem in 70.

And waiting in the wings is Caesar's Calendar Ancient Time and the Beginnings of History by Denis Feeney -- have glanced at this but can not say exactly how this will read.

Never enough time, even with the long train ride to work.

:?

Narukami
David Reinke
Burbank CA
Reply
#3
Quote:Currently reading Rome & Jerusalem The Clash of Ancient Civilizations by Martin Goodman

About halfway through and while it is loaded with all manner of interesting info I must say it is not exactly what I had expected. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I will reserve judgment until I get trough the fall of Jerusalem in 70.

I finished it back in January. The author tries to show both the cultural differences and (more interesting, IMO) similarities between the Romans and Jews. Marriage, for example, in both cultures was simply a contractual agreement as opposed to a sacrament (as in Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which didn't happen until the 12th century AD). Upper class Jews in Jerusalem as well as ordinary Jews living in Rome preferred to speak in Greek. The Jewish practice of observing the Sabbath (i.e. not working on a single day of the week) had spread all over the Mediterranean world and beyond at least by the time of Josephus (who said as much). Jerusalem also had its own theater, amphitheater, and hippodrome. The point of describing these similarities is to show that the clash between the two civilizations wasn't due to cultural differences to the extent that one might suspect.

The author claims that Jerusalem was the most famous, beautiful city of the Eastern Mediterranean but I didn't know it enjoyed such a reputation among pagans. This reputation probably wasn't established, I suspect, until after Herod the Great beautified the city.

Another major theme of the book is why the Romans forbade the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple even after so many decades and centuries had passed. The author contends that this was due to the fact that the Flavian dynasty's legitimacy depended heavily on the conquest of the Jerusalem. Vespasian couldn't base his legitimacy solely on the fact that he won a bloody civil war but he could show that he was conqueror over a "foreign" enemy of Rome.

But there was a brief moment, the author says, when the Jews had a real chance to restore the Temple. When Nerva had succeeded Domitian he resorted to blackening his memory (and, by the extension, the Flavians) to help legitimize his accession. There was a new toleration under Nerva who had abolished the Flavian punitive tax placed on Jews. So, the Flavian policy of forbidding reconstruction of the Temple seemed to be on the brink of subsiding.

Of course, this did not happen because of Trajan's accession. Trajan's father was a commander in Judea during the Jewish Revolt so his legitimacy also depended heavily on the conquest of Judea. And since just about every Emperor after Trajan claimed some connection to him (or the Flavians directly) the Roman ban on rebuilding the Temple continued unabated (until briefly under Julian).

Now, I'm not so sure that there was an actual "ban" on rebuilding the Temple. Maybe the Romans just didn't want to foot the bill for rebuilding at the state's expense. Of course, later the Jews were expelled and banned from the city which had been renamed "Aelia Capitolina," rebuilt as a pagan city in the renamed province of "Palestine." But the ban on Jewish residency must have been lifted during the Christian period otherwise Julian's attempt to rebuild it makes little sense. Why wasn't there a grassroots effort by Jewish citizens to rebuild it themselves after Julian died ? Oddly enough, the author doesn't really address this possibility.

~Theo
Jaime
Reply
#4
Quote:Now, I'm not so sure that there was an actual "ban" on rebuilding the Temple. [..] But the ban on Jewish residency must have been lifted during the Christian period otherwise Julian's attempt to rebuild it makes little sense.
I'm sure there was. Hadrian had initially outlawed Judaism, and although these measure were softened later, any religious community would still have to seek permission from the authorities to rebuild (and claim!) such a vast complex. Julian's apparent impunity to construct anything there may point to the site being owned by the state. Anyway, shortly after Julian we see the rise of militant Christianity, with synagoghs being destroyed everywhere (despite Theodosius' initial bans he was forced by Ambrose to back down), so I guess there was simply no chance for the Jews to rebuild their temple.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
#5
Quote:any religious community would still have to seek permission from the authorities to rebuild (and claim!) such a vast complex
Rebuilding the whole, lavish Herodian complex would probably not have been feasible with Jewish donations alone, I suspect. More realistically, they could have built something more modest - anything, as long as they can say they have a Temple. That's the most important thing.

Granted, it was probably more difficult for the Jewish community to rebuild the Temple by the late fourth century. However, before the Bar Kokhba revolt there was (perhaps) an open window of a few decades since the destruction of Jerusalem for rebuilding. This assumes two big things on my part :
  • that the state did not seize the ground at that time (I'm not sure what purpose it could serve since it was just rubble)
  • that there was no official "ban"
The urgency to rebuild the Temple on the part of the Jewish community would probably have been greatest during this period since the same generation must have visited it sometimes in their lives when it still stood.

BTW, the author says that it was contrary to standard Roman practice to forbid rebuilding holy places of those they conquered and thus would have been seen as outrageous that the Temple was not rebuilt. Before the Jewish Revolt the Romans thought the Jewish religion was very strange but not repulsive. There were no negative depictions of the Jews in Roman literature with the exception of a single line by Seneca who refers to them as a "most wicked race". But Seneca may have written this in Nero's reign just before the Revolt broke out when everyone knew the situation in Judea was bubbling up.

Quote:militant Christianity, with synagoghs being destroyed everywhere (despite Theodosius' initial bans he was forced by Ambrose to back down), so I guess there was simply no chance for the Jews to rebuild their temple.
I'm not sure about synagogues being burnt "everywhere." I remember reading that pagan temples were the primary targets and that one major synagogue in Anatolia was destroyed. As for Saint Ambrose, I read that he changed the emperor's mind about rebuilding it at state expense (which I have no problem with since the state didn't burn it down. The arsonists, IMO, should have been arrested and punished though).

~Theo
Jaime
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Good books - hard to get Praefectusclassis 17 3,433 04-19-2013, 11:38 PM
Last Post: Narukami
  Good books which cover 200-130BC ?? Anonymous 7 1,737 01-31-2005, 09:19 PM
Last Post: Praefectusclassis
  Looking for good starter Ref Books Anonymous 6 2,687 11-16-2001, 11:37 AM
Last Post: Anonymous

Forum Jump: