Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That looks very like the plates on my belt, and yes they did have Neillo.

They are mounted flat on the leather, as they are flat plates more or less, aside from the engraving for neillo.

http://www.romanarmy.net/Rome%202008/Pa ... us_JPG.htm

Hope that helps?

[Latinitas]

Yes, it`s a great foto.

You have exactly the same belt plates as I want to have. It will be hard to make them, niello gives very toxic gases Is your plate stamped, or is it irrigated (melt bronze / brass and put it into the form). The last will be the best for me...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I am guessing these are punched, the 'neillo' is probably enamal, as opposed to the real thing! (and cheaper, too :wink: )

[Latinitas]

Oei, that will be hard for me to make... Niello is very expensive here. I have heard the price for 1 box is 60 euro hock: . Does anyone have experience whit it here? And btw, which plates are made of melted bronze / brass?

[M. Demetrius]

For some reason, I couldn't get the photobucket link to work.

[Peroni]

This is the link: http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig062.png I want to make belt plate 2. At the internet I have seen a lot of versions. Some have niello and some plates don`t have it. It is very hard for me to find the original.

The belt plate (no. 2) is one of the finds from Hod Hill in Dorset UK. The original plate is on display at the British Museum.

I have photographs of the original. I will post them when I find them! I also can give dimensions.

Yes it does have niello inlay. The plate is no thicker than 1.0mm.

Another Hod Hill plate... http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... cts_id=146

[Crispvs]

Magnus,

Hmmm.

Your frogs are at about the right distance from your suspesion rings and I agree that the rings should be tied to frogs with thongs as you have done.

I can't say however that I like the other straps you have added. I am sure that they do increase the stability somewhat but the evidence as it stands says that the lower rings were unused during that period. This evidence includes most of the figural stele from the rhineland (the remainder do not show daggers) and surviving sheaths. The Velson sheath is very instructive here. Its upper suspension rings were made of iron but its lower suspension rings were made of (softer) silver. The upper rings were quite worn but the lower rings showed very little sign of any wear. If they had been used, being silver, they would have worn more quickly than the iron rings and so would show a greater amount of wear. The fact that they do not show that they were unused.

Crispvs

[Latinitas]

I have photographs of the original. I will post them when I find them! I also can give dimensions.

That will be great!!

I think the romans engraved the form into the plate and fill it with niello. A plate with a thickness of 1 mm is very difficult to punch. Engraving is of course a possibility but it will took a lot of time. Maybe they used casted brass plates. The big question is: was the "Hod hill plate" made of casted material, was it punched, or was it engraved?

[Tarbicus]

You need to do a search on RAT for Matt Lukes' experiments with using shaped punches for inlaid pugio plates. It's a very convincing argument for punched decoration which could then have the sides undercut, and be filled with brass, silver, or even niello or enamel.

[Latinitas]

I am searching this, I hop I will find it. Thanks for the tip.

The big question is: was the "Hod hill plate" made of casted material, was it punched, or was it engraved?

Does anyone have an answer for the question ? Peroni maybe?

[Crispvs]

Plates of that type are always cast. The punched decoration was often done later though.

Crispvs

[Latinitas]

Yeah, casting bronze or brass is nice :mrgreen:

I understand that the romans made a casted plate, with the pattern in it. So no engraving or punshing. The casted plate was finished and pollished, and then was niello putted into the grooves. Is my notion right?

Of course all about the hod hill plate!

[Crispvs]

Not sure about that. Some of them were definitely engraved after being cast. Some of the poorer examples even seem to have been decorated after they had already been attached to belts, with more than one example showing incised lines which also pass accross the heads of the attachment rivets.

The best souce of information on early Imperial belt plates is Francis Grew and Nick Griffths' 1991 article: 'The pre-Flavian military belt: the evidence form Britain'.

Grew and Griffiths illustrate all of the pre-Flavian belt plates known from Britain up to that time and give a very good description on decorative styles and methods, including a useful table showing the shapes of the different punches which were used to create the patterns on type 'A' plates. I have always been led to believe that some plates were cast with patterns already on them but I have found nothing to confirm or deny this in Grew and Griffiths or anywhere else I have looked.

Crispvs

[Latinitas]

Thanks, nice to hear that.

3 things I need to know about the hod hill plate (number 2 in picture).

- Was it made of brass / bronze
- In which period was the plate made?
- About the rivets, who fix the plate on the belt, were they made of pure copper or another metal?

[Crispvs]

A) 'Copper-Alloy' is the term that most of us prefer, as the alloys the Romans made tended to vary slightly, but they are normally closer to our brass than true bronze. Think brass with insufficient zinc content and you would be about right.

B ) The plates from Hod Hill could not have been deposited any time before AD43 but they may have been made some time before this. It is also most likely that they would have been deposited before About AD70, as there is little evidence for that style of belt plate at sites with Flavian foundation dates.

C ) I am not quite sure about rivets (Matt Lukes is probably the best man here for that) but the higher the copper content, the softer (and therefore more easily peened over) the metal, so it is likely that rivets would contain a higher percentage of copper than the plates they were attaching.

Crispvs