Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus

[Latinitas]

Ave omnes fori,

I am searching for tutorial video`s about how I could make a cingulum or balteus. Does anyone have such a site? I have read the thickness of a balteus plate was 0.01". This is very thin, is that thickness correct?

I would like to make a cingulum like this:



Also I would have information about the hilt of the pugio. Did the Romans put wood on the blade, and cover it with thin steel (let say 0.01")? If they did it, what was the original thickness of that steel?

Thank you for answering and I hope my English is correct

[Tarbicus]

You need to put your real name in your signature. Forum rule.

Go to this site and page to see a real balteus apron.
http://romanmilitaryequipment.co.uk/figures.htm
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig063.png

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!

Been to the Legio XX site yet?

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/balteus.html

Plates that were stamped with dies to make raised designs were very thin (.010" has worked the best for me). But the plates in your photo were cast with a sunken design, so they will be thicker (1 to 2mm).

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pugio.html

Right, the pugio had a layered hilt, with iron plates covering a layer of wood (or horn, or bone, etc.). I don't know if there is any precise information on the iron plates, but from what I've seen, some were fairly thin (0.75mm?), while others were solid and maybe 2 to 3mm thick at the center.

Vale,

Matthew

[Latinitas]

You need to put your real name in your signature. Forum rule.

My real name is Niels, and I have put it into my signature since I was registered. So i do not see the problem...

Thanks for the answers.

I have understood that the romans put a piece of wood on the handle of the pugio and then a metal plate with a thickness of 3mm

Witch number in the picture is the right?

[Marcus Mummius]

I think both versions existed. Often the layer was bone, it appears. Perhaps even ivory in some cases.

Vale,

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Both are valid. If you use the search engine (at the upper part of the web) you'll find a lot of information.


In order to make the left version see that tutorial:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... highlight=

To make the right version:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... nstruction

[brennivs - tony drake]

I did this one with a pressed out handle, I made the press and also did them in iron if I have time Ill post the press. I am a little busy this weekend so Ill do it asap

Regards Brennivs

[M. Demetrius]

I have a question about the belt. The last one I made had the buckle in the very back. It can't be on the left hip because of the pugio/frog space needed, and can't be in the front because of the apron, and likewise would probably interfere with the gladius on the right.

What do you folks generally do about buckle placement? I'm working on one in the design area right now, so it's a good time to make a decision. Helps?

[Tarbicus]

Dave, go to the Imagebase and make your own mind up about placement of the buckle. That's where I think all opinions come from anyway. Go through them by date or period and look at where it seems the buckles on the belts are for your impression's period.

[M. Demetrius]

Thanks, Tarb. You're all right, (no matter what Peroni says).

The only thing that bothered me about having the buckle in the back, is that it's really difficult to belt up without a helper. No doubt the Romans encountered the same problem, and it was probably just matter of course to help the next guy out, same as today.

[Matthew Amt]

Not sure why the buckle should end up at the back. On reliefs I've seen it either attached right next to the apron, so that the tongue end points to the left across the front (or hanging down next to the apron), or on the free end with the tongue end projecting to the right from the apron. Either way, if your belt isn't made too small, it shouldn't be too far around to the side. Oh, one tip is to make sure that the apron is as close to the end of the belt as possible, in other words that there are no plates to the right of it, between apron and either buckle or tongue end. (Does that make sense?)

This is all assuming that the belt closure is to the right of the apron, of course! With the pugio frogs on the left.

Valete,

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

Well, Matt, there's no reason. On the one I made, after attaching the apron, leaving space for the pugio, and what I thought was enough space for the gladius and its strap, the buckle ended around back where I couldn't see to fasten myself in without help. I didn't like that, so asked the bonehead question about where other people put theirs. AFAIK there's no clear rule or practice.

Between the apron and the pugio frog is a good spot for it, and it lets the shiny brass buckle show, too. So it's ok, bueno, good. Plus, a fellow can dress himself. You know how it is around the campfire late at night..."Yeah, he can't even put on his balteus by himself. You know what THAT means...." And everyone nods and stares at you. Not pretty.[/i]

[Magnus]

Hey Dave...start out with your belt and tape all the components...but work from teh buckle over. Position it on your hip (that's about where mine is) and work over from there. You can adjust spacing by closing or widening the pugio gap.

[M. Demetrius]

Good advice. As I said earlier in another thread, I'm making the apron so it can be removed. So there will be a few plates behind it, most likely. That way, I can wear just a non-dangly belt. Who knows? Someday I might get promoted to Centurio! Then I will have a "First Belt" for that, too.

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

Plates that were stamped with dies to make raised designs were very thin (.010" has worked the best for me). But the plates in your photo were cast with a sunken design, so they will be thicker (1 to 2mm).

Do they hold up well, being that thin? I ask because I've got it in mind to make another belt one fine day, after 1000 other projects And I wanted something lighter than the cast plates I have now.

If it helps, Dave, I made mine with the buckle just forward of the right hip. The tongue side of the belt was next to the apron, pointing right, and the buckle pointed left. It lies halfway between the gladius and apron, so I can hold the tongue with the left hand and pull the buckle through the top 2 straps of the baldric with my right hand. Works OK except I have to rotate the belt back into place once I've pulled the tongue through the buckle.


It seems better that if you're placing it on the right, the buckle should be attached right after the apron, and have the tongue on the other side.