Scale hoods,manica,lorica

[Anonymous]

So what is the consensus? If I could go back in time (3rdcen),I would see some legionaires wearing scale hoods, lorica segmentata and manica arm guards. What about shields? Dished oval, oval and standard scutum?<br>
Thanks guys, I love all of the opinions!!!<br>
JOhnny <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Mmmh, as far as I can remember (NO, I wasn't there! ) not one of the Roman soldiers found in the collapsed Dura Europos mine was wering anything on their heads. Am I right, Mike?<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

No, the Roman soldiers fighting in the mine did not wear anything on their heads. The Persian however wore a helmet (for which we are eternally grateful). However, it is supposed that the Romans decided not to wear anything because it would allow them better movement. Cowan concluded this helped to defeat them, because the Persians were less vulnerable.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

The Persian side of the mine had a higher ceiling, due to its lengthier construction time, which would have allowed the Persian soldiers to wear helmets comfortably (on their side at least). The Roman side was in fact a hastily dug counter mine whose ceiling was lower, allowing for faster forward growth of the tunnel, but also ensuring that the Romans had to crouch as they moved along the tunnel to fight the Persians, hence no helmets with deep neckguards. The Roman bodies are thought to have been the casualties, several wounded rather than dead of the short battle which probably ensued in or close to the juction of the two mines. Presumably the Romans lost, those who could ran out and the panicking people at the mouth of the mine sealed it up to prevent the Persians from following the beaten Romans, leaving the crawling wounded inside. They then crawled over one another into whatever hollows they could find in an effort to escape the heat and smoke as the Persians fired the mine. What confuses me about the the Tower 19 mine is that the Persians had enough time to build a clay wall to cover the entrance of the counter mine (presumably to concentrate the fire) but did not have time to withdraw the body of the dead persian (who was probably an officer) or his equipment first.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Just to add more to the fire, but instead of a hood, could it instead be something like a Gorget or a Standard? Looking at basic Roman panopoly, there isn't much protection in the throat area. Something like a Gallic I helmet with the neckguard and say, Lorica Seggie, there ain't much covering your throat save the focale scarf!<br>
<br>
Supposedly Romans like to thrust at the face of an opponent, but what happens when it comes back at you? Sure the scutum is there to protect most of you, but against something like a Flax or even an Arrow stray or aimed...I doubt there's much of a chance. But I don't know of any accounts of throat injuries in Roman references exclusively...Otherwise I think they'd probably try to do something about it?<br>
<br>
Anywhos, as for Tunnels, I'd make sure I'd be one of the dudes NOT in the tunnel thankyouverymuch...I'd take my chances out in the open than risk getting buried alive, helmet or not!<br>
<br>
valete<br>
-ANDY <p></p><i></i>

[Berbescu]

Apart from the Alba Iulia relief, there is the Ebenezer fresco from Dura Europos and the Vergilius Romanus which shows such hoods.

Are there pictures online of these depictions (or possible depictions) of a scaled hood?


Ioan

[Berbescu]

I recently came across some intriguing pieces of what seem like Roman armor that may offer some insights into the Alba Iulia type. I'll post my conclusions after I've studied them some more.

Have you finished your study? What are your conclusions?


Ioan

[caiusbeerquitius]

This is thread necromancy...

[Dan Howard]

FWIW I would much rather someone ressurect an old thread rather than start a new thread about the same thing. It makes searching much easier and cuts down on thread count.

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Hum... Maybe a mistake of interpretation there. A member to herculiani group was going to Syria at hollydays and send me a nice book about the Doura Europos fresquo.

The infantrymen on the Ebenezer fesquo from Doura Europos doesn't wear scale or mail coifs on their heads. With a good resolution, the image don't show no mail and no scale coifs. A shock to me...!

[Robert Vermaat]

Well, if these hoods are not scale or mail, what on earth ARE these infantrymen wearing??



But we also have the Vergilius Vaticanus:

http://www.portvein777.narod.ru/ptol/ma ... age045.jpg

[Tarbicus]

It'd be really funny if it was long hair :wink:

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Long hair i don't know... but it is clear, no scale or mail coifs on this picture.

See here:

http://111935.aceboard.fr/111935-542-51 ... tes.htm#vb

They are the Codex Vergilius Vaticanus infantrymen of course, but we must review the datation to the scale(?) and mail coif.

[Tarbicus]

Long hair i don't know... but it is clear, no scale or mail coifs on this picture.

See here:

http://111935.aceboard.fr/111935-542-51 ... tes.htm#vb

They are the Codex Vergilius Vaticanus infantrymen of course, but we must review the datation to the scale(?) and mail coif.

I have to say that I think they are scale coifs. Most of the detail of the faces of the two lower figures have faded, and all I think that has happened is that the detail on the coifs has faded as well. The upper figure has retained more detail, and is certainly, to my mind, wearing a scale coif, the detail of which is still slightly there.

I honestly think it's just the effects of ageing and wear.

One of the really interesting aspects is the strips of wood seem visible on the scuta, as if they have no additional layers. Alternatively, they are decorated with simple stripes.

[Robert Vermaat]

I agree with Jim about the wear & tear.

Btw, the soldiers depicted are most probably Sassanids or Parthians (playing the role of Philistines in the Biblical frescoes) so not totally relevant for Roman scale/mail hoods anyway.