IN Ross Cowans book,"Imperial Roman Legionary 161-284" he has soldiers wearing scale hoods, lorica segmentata and manica arm guards all together. Is this supported by any fact or just conjecture? Thanks <p></p><i></i>
It may be a reconstruction of the Alba Iulia relief, which certainly shows a soldier equipped with both segmentata cuirass and manica. The figure is missing its head but there do appear to be scales visible on the upper chest and shoulders, which is probably the justification for the scale coif. Mike Bishop reconstructs this scale area however, as the upper section of a hitherto unknown type of lorica segmentata, rather than the bottom of a coif.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Are there any photos of this relief?<br>
Has anyone ever reconstucted a scale hood? It seems it would be very hot and would limit hearing!<br>
Thanks <p></p><i></i>
Cohors Quinta Gallorum in the UK have reconstructed a scale coif. I've seen it but never tried it on (third century kit would look anacronistic with my mid first century kit). As for pictures of the Alba Iulia relief you could look in Bishop and Coulston, 'Roman Military Equipment' (published in 1993 and now sadly out of print, although a rewrite will be available shortly); Mike Bishop's recent monograph on Lorica Segmentata; the relevant bit of Bishop's website on segmentata (
www.mcbishop.co.uk/loricaseg/albaulia.htm; or ask the eminent Dr Bishop himself.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 2/25/04 11:20 pm<br></i>
I.P. Stephenson does the same in his 'Roman Infantry Equipment - The Later Empire', but I've also seen the choice of interpreting these hoods as mail coifs. mail would be much better for ventilation and hearing, and offer similar protection.<br>
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Apart from the Alba Iulia relief, there is the Ebenezer fresco from Dura Europos and the Vergilius Romanus which shows such hoods.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Wow, I didn't know that was a possible piece of equipment..Interesting.<br>
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I wonder if it's a far-off possibility which coincides with the development of the Kataphract cavalry, who as far as I know eventually wore head-to-toe maille or scale (with respective Barding on thier horsies)....I know Kataphract/Cataphract is a specific unit, and I'm not sure if it's orginally Roman (Persian?)...I just can't think of nor find the other 2 terms I have heard/seen referring to Late Roman/3-4th century heavy Cavalry units.<br>
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as for ventiliation, I can only imagine it's as uncomfortable as a "regular" Roman helmet, infantry or cavalry type...Cavalry are usually more enclosing around the head/face, yes? Although I can imagine Scale could be more hot than maille.<br>
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Anyways, this piece of Scale for a hood...Could this in [sculpture] instead be a representation of a design or added texture of fabric on the hood? Perhaps the fabric hood is quilted? to act as a helmet liner/padding?<br>
Just some thoughts.<br>
ANDY <p></p><i></i>
Now, let's see if this works...<br>
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<img src="http://www.mcbishop.co.uk/images/alba.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
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Just in case it doesn't, look here:<br>
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http://www.mcbishop.co.uk/images/alba.jpg
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Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
That is great Mike!<br>
The Lorica looks like it has only 4 girth straps. What do you think? Do you think the scale is part of the lorica? Or hood?<br>
Thanks so much for you efforts.<br>
Johnny<br>
PS- How do you post images? I'm a professional illustrator and have done many Roman legionaire paintings, love to share them with you folks! <p></p><i></i>
Ave, Johnny!<br>
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Here is Mike Bishop's interpretation of the Alba Iulia cuirass:<br>
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www.mcbishop.co.uk/lorica...aiulia.htm<br>
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As you can see, he mates a scale upper section with a segmented girth section.<br>
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I personally am not sure what to think about the Alba Iulia relief, as to whether it shows something along the lines of Mike's reconstruction, or whether we're looking at some sort of scale coif worn over a more traditional lorica seg. The problem with a scale upper section, to me, is that it eliminates one of the lorica segmentata's great strengths, namely the heavily redundant shoulder and upper arm protection, and replaces it with something decidedly inferior, without offering any obvious advantages in protection or ease of construction over earlier versions. Then again, applying our own sense of logic to what the Romans did or might have done is always dangerous...<br>
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I recently came across some intriguing pieces of what seem like Roman armor that may offer some insights into the Alba Iulia type. I'll post my conclusions after I've studied them some more.<br>
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To post images on the board, you need to first host the images on a server, then click on the "image" icon under "formatting" to the left of the post page (that is, the page that comes up when you hit "new topic" or "reply") , and insert a web address for the image into the appropriate place.<br>
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Hope that makes sense!<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
Legio VI Victrix Pia Fidelis<br>
California, USA <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/26/04 6:31 am<br></i>
Of course it could simply be a protective collar around the neck and upper shoulders.<br>
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Celer <p></p><i></i>
Judging from image of the relief posted above, if the scales were part of a hood it would seem to be worn under the lorica, which somehow seems unlikely to me. Either that or what appear to be the breast plates are actually part of the hood. I'm not convinced by the reconstruction, in any case.<br>
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On the other hand, a scale/segmented composite armour strikes me as being needlessly complicated. <p></p><i></i>
Judging from image of the relief posted above, if the scales were part of a hood it would appear to be worn under the lorica, which somehow seems unlikely to me. Either that or what appear to be the breast plates are actually part of the hood. I'm not convinced by the reconstruction, in any case.<br>
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On the other hand, a scale/segmented composite armour strikes me as being needlessly complicated. <p></p><i></i>
Oh, but the Romans LOVED needless complication! Look at the lorica itself, for one! And hinges on leather belts? Heck, if you ask me, something that's hard to make and unfathomable in purpose is more likely to be right than a simple interpretation...<br>
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No reason a scale hood should be hotter than a mail one, since both would need padding. Weren't the soldiers found in the mine at Dura Europas wearing mail coifs but not helmets? The theory being that the deep neckguards were too restricting since the men had to half-crouch in the low tunnel. But on the open battlefield, put on the helmet!<br>
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Flavius, I've heard the bit about the shoulder section of a lorica being "heavily reinforced" and all that, but have always been puzzled by it. It's just one row of plates, which overlap each other a quarter-inch, maybe a half-inch at most, pretty much like the girdle plates. It's true that they do tend to be thicker than the girdle plates, but I think the idea of the lorica being designed "specifically to deal with downward strokes" is rather over-blown. You have to make the metal go over your shoulders some way or other, and the options are limited.<br>
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Gotta run! Valete,<br>
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Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
<<Flavius, I've heard the bit about the shoulder section of a lorica being "heavily reinforced" and all that, but have always been puzzled by it. It's just one row of plates, which overlap each other a quarter-inch, maybe a half-inch at most, pretty much like the girdle plates. It's true that they do tend to be thicker than the girdle plates, but I think the idea of the lorica being designed "specifically to deal with downward strokes" is rather over-blown. You have to make the metal go over your shoulders some way or other, and the options are limited.>><br>
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Yeah, but you're just talking about the shoulder guards themselves-- underneath that (at least at the topmost part), you've got the breastplate-backplate-shoulder junction, and even that small amount of overlap between the various shoulder guard means you've usually got at least two, sometimes three layers of energy-absorbing metal and a lot of additional "air space" before you get to flesh and bone. A scale upper section means only a single layer of metal and a lot less air space (even presuming you'd wear a padded sumarmalis). Even mail shirts were doubled in this area, although the doubling disappeared sometime in the 2nd century (hmmm... do we detect a trend here, maybe-- less importance being placed on shoulder protection as tactics shift?). Anyway, I don't think the proposition that one of the major appeals of the lorica seg is that it offered better shoulder and upper-arm protection is overblown. Just look at a guy wearing a lorica seg, and you think (as Mike Bishop put it) "American footballer." And American footballers certainly put a lot of stress on shoulder protection...<br>
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T. Flavius Crispus<br>
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I believe the soldiers in the sap were wearing leather helmets, but I could be remembering wrong. They definitely were not wearing proper helmets though =p <p></p><i></i>