Scale hoods,manica,lorica

[Nicholas Gaukroger]

Why Sasanids or Parthians?

They wear Roman style tight leggings and the swords are shortish in Roman style rather than the longer Sasanid ones. The shields could easily be poor depictions of Roman oval shields and long sleeved mail is depicted elsewhere for Romans but the armour is not similar to depictions of Parthians or Sasanids.

IMO there are quite a few reasons why they could be Roman.

[Berbescu]

Long hair i don't know... but it is clear, no scale or mail coifs on this picture.

http://111935.aceboard.fr/111935-542-51 ... tes.htm#vb

They are the Codex Vergilius Vaticanus infantrymen of course, but we must review the datation to the scale(?) and mail coif.

It's really hard to say what they have on their heads. The one in the upper row might still have some details of some scales on the head cover but not necessarly. The bottom ones even look like it could be a cloth head cover.

I agree with Jim about the wear & tear.

Btw, the soldiers depicted are most probably Sassanids or Parthians (playing the role of Philistines in the Biblical frescoes) so not totally relevant for Roman scale/mail hoods anyway.

So then we are back to the beginning? No examples of Roman's using scale hoods? No evidence for it?

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Nik,

Why are the legggings 'typically Roman'?
Why do you interpret the leggings and swords as accurate but the shields as 'poor'? I think the hexagonal shields are very un-Roman, and logic would call for the very 'typical'Roman shields as one of the easiest items of Roman equipment to reproduce! If the artist botched up the shields that bad, would we be able to trust the rest of the depiction at all? :wink:

The main reason for the soldiers to be 'seen' as enemies of Rome is because the are the enemies of Israel in the artwork. Depicting Romans in the riole of 'enemies' would be possible of course, but also a bit risky.

As to the figures not being parthians or Sassanids, their swords may be short (some seem single-edged?), but the long scale (mail?) armour was much more a Parthian/Sassanid thing than seen in Roman armies.

[Tarbicus]

I must admit, the red clavii make me think "Romans".

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was curious if anyone had considered an impression based on this item of Equipment!

Why are they un-Roman shields? Were there not cavelry shields of a similar shape? There are not exactly hundreds of shield remains in existance?

The coifs look like mail to me as well, even if faded.
Is this printed on a fabric that could explain any patterning in the upper figures coiff? I get the impression it is scale, as with the lower figure, the lower figure's seem to have a scale shape around the bottom of the coiff.

I cannot open your link, Damien is it? So I cannot see what that shows I am afraid.

[Robert Vermaat]

Why are they un-Roman shields? Were there not cavelry shields of a similar shape? There are not exactly hundreds of shield remains in existance?

Oh, there were, but rectangular and oval shields had been the Roman shield for centuries when this was made. So either we have an otherwise unprovenaced Roman shield type here, or (more likely) a non-Roman type.

Was there a shield from Amida?

I cannot open your link, Damien is it? So I cannot see what that shows I am afraid.

Better?
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9973 ... ncess4.jpg

[Nicholas Gaukroger]

Why are the legggings 'typically Roman'?

Because they appear on many later Roman illustrations such as the Piazza Armerina mosaics.

Late Roman soldiers - "men in tights" :lol:

Why do you interpret the leggings and swords as accurate but the shields as 'poor'?

I don't believe I said that the leggings and swords were good quality illustrations - the whole is rather patchy IMO.

I think the hexagonal shields are very un-Roman,

As already mentioned hexagonal shields are shown in some Roman cases.

As to the figures not being parthians or Sassanids, their swords may be short (some seem single-edged?), but the long scale (mail?) armour was much more a Parthian/Sassanid thing than seen in Roman armies.

Off hand I can't think of a Sasanid or Parthian example that looks anything like these men. The shields are even more un-Iranian than they might be un-Roman at least in terms of depictions, as reed through leather shields like that found at Dura are typical of the area since pre-biblical times (mind you the Dura find was inside wasn't it, which could mean that was used by Roman troops).

Edit - checking the excavation Final report VII volume one of most complete of the Dura examples was found at the near tower 19.