hello!..and advice on greaves?

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks Stephanos! Look forward to hearing any more info on the Agora and Olympia museum examples (if you’ve got any to hand) but no worries if you don’t. Would be good to get some definitely Greek examples!

Thanks for your help so far! Any comments on the other references (anyone) would be great. Are they to be trusted or is it not conclusive enough to tell?

Thanks to Susanne. I have emailed the hoplite association who will hopefully forward it to the relevant person/people!

With regard to Italian greaves (vaguely directed at Matthew Amt)-

I’m afraid I don’t know what time period this refers to but it seems to suggest ‘classical’. (link below)

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/greaves.html

‘At right are Kevin Hendryx's very nice early Classical Greek greaves, made by Darkheart Armory. (Also see my Greek Hoplite Page) In Italy it was common to have straps and buckles at the bottom and near the top, rather than simply pulling the greave onto the leg and relying on its own springiness to keep it in place.’

This comes from the Legio XX site and you (M. Amt) seem to be the contact for them. Earlier in the topic you state that -

‘Laces or straps were more common in Italy during the Classical period.’

Do you have any further info on these greaves or is there anyone in your society who will know about these? I may have to change my ‘nationality’ and name but I suppose they could have been traded from Italy. There must have been a lot of trading between Greek colonies in Italy and Greece itself during the 5th C BC (as I hear many shields may have been made in Syracuse and traded to Greeks).

I realise clip on greaves where no doubt more common, fashionable and desirable in Greece in the 5th C but it’s looking to me more and more likely that other methods of attaching them where available at that time!

Giannis - A thought occurs to me that you mentioned earlier-

A pair of greaves from Campania(4th c bc) has two very small rings riveted behind the knee and another pair behind the ankle.

Although its one century out from what I’m searching for would the rings be used like this pic of a cuirass? (Comerus Gallus Romus’ post)

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... c&start=20

Merry Christmas to all you Philhellenes out there and everyone else at RAT! And thank you all for your help!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Merry Christmas to everybody!
George,the rings might have been used like this,or rather just tied together with a thong.I don't know,but I thing it would be just a thong.
Khaire
Giannis.

PS.I think when you get the book,all your questions will be answered,as there are some very "handy" ways depicted there :wink:

[Pericles of Rhodes]

The picture below is taken from the DK book 'Sicily' (Eyewitness Travel Guides) who in turn took it from a Programme of the Istituto Nazionale del Dramma Antico (National Institute of Ancient Drama in Syracuse, Sicily (INDA)). It was founded in 1925. It clearly shows a Greek warrior/hoplite wearing greaves attached to the legs by two straps. I hesitate to put this forward as proof of Greek strapped greaves as I have no idea of the time period it was made and although it looks like a Greek vase painting it may be a modern ‘in the style of’ painting. I don’t know if anyone recognises this and I apologise if this is obvious either way! All information is greatly appreciated.

It has been confirmed that greaves of the classical 5th Century type generally where clipped onto the leg and held by their own elasticity. This required the greaves to be made specifically for the wearer’s legs so as to stay on (e.g. Philip of Macedon’s greaves are different sizes and shapes as it seems his legs where not symmetrical). If armour was handed down from father to son (which it no doubt was) then a piece of armour like greaves would have to be adapted for the son’s use. If the son had bigger or thinner calves than his father the greaves would just fall off! Therefore the son must have found some way of securing these greaves to his legs so they didn’t fall off. I know what I’d do in that situation just from common sense!

Stefanos - regarding the classical greaves you mention that

‘some fragments in the Agora Museum and Olympia Museum give indigation of thong usage’

I have found a couple of pictures from the Olympia Museum (links below). Is this what you mean - many holes around the edge? If so do you mean thong usage to attach them? I was under the impression these where only for attaching a lining to the greaves. If this is not what you mean I could try to email the museums for more info.

http://image59.webshots.com/159/5/9/44/ ... hte_ph.jpg

http://image44.webshots.com/44/6/89/83/ ... lKt_ph.jpg

Giannis – thank you for the page references. I’ve had a re read of Connoly’s ‘Greece and Rome at war’ that I got for Christmas (great book!) and found the Italian Greaves you referred to from Cumae in Campania unfortunately (as we knew) they are about 100 years out (they are the 2nd half of 4th C) but as I said in my previous post I imagine they could have been easily traded to Greece at that period. A 5th C example would be nice though! ) is it me or did Homer refer to ancle rings? a connexion?

Am I allowed to put scanned pictures of the greaves from the book on the forum for anyone else interested do you think?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This is not an ancient vase,unfortunately.There are some paintings of those graves from Connolly on the net.When I return in Thessaloniki I may find some.I don't think it is legal to scan parts of a book,but some people have done it in the forum(me among them in one case).
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Sorry George, the responce I get from the links is
"Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /44/6/89/83/2491689830059082311xLplKt_ph.jpg on this server. "

By the way best pic of an Eretrian hoplite that I have seen so far.

Best regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Sorry Stefanos!

It seems you have to copy and paste the address into your address box. for some reason that makes it work! no idea why! hope this works.

hoplite14gr wrote:

By the way best pic of an Eretrian hoplite that I have seen so far.

If you are referring to my attached picture do you mean you disagree with Giannis and you think this is an ancient vase or that this is a good modern picture? Are you suggesting Eretrian hoplites had small aspises and strapped greaves as in the picture?

[hoplite14gr]

I saw them.

from the second link only the very very left and the very very right specimem had been interpeted as strapped.

I am not sure of the authenticity of the attched image.
I recognize the hoplite as Eretrian from his shield device.

Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

from the second link only the very very left and the very very right specimem had been interpeted as strapped.

Could you please describe to me what I should be looking for in this picture? I found this picture purely by luck on the internet and have no zoomed in pictures of the particular greaves.

Are these two the only greaves that have evidence of strapping in the museum/s or are there others?

I presume you are not referring to the tiny holes around the edge of the greaves (which I believe was used for attaching the lining) as the other greaves also have this. Please could you tell me what the actual theory behind the greaves is? :?: It is all still very vague. How is it thought the ‘strapping’ was done and how do the greaves help to prove this? :?:

Your information would be very helpful.

If you are unwilling to go into detail about the greaves on the forum please send me a PM.

I look forward to hearing more!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

From what I can see from these pics,there's nothing strapped in these greaves.First of all they''re too early to be strapped.George,I think the safer solution is either the small rings in the back,tied with thongs,or the leather straps wrapping the calf and ankle. But both ways are a bit outdated for the fifth century. Bear in mind,however,that the distinction in centuries is non existent. The hoplite of 410bc would be no different from one in 399bc.And strapped greaves in the beginning of the 4th century may have been rare,but usually a slow process is needed for evolution to take place and be depicted in art. Now,if you want to portray one hoplite from the early 5th century,we have a problem here. :lol:
Khaire
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks Giannis!

Yes. Unfortunately it seems that long before the 5th C, or a bit after the 5th C - strapped or laced greaves where commonly used but during the century I want to portray evidence is more scarce.

In a similar vein but in a slightly different direction does anyone know how the arm guards (upper and lower) and the thigh guards used by hoplites where attached (as seen in the Olympia museum and various vase paintings)? I presume that these where not held on just by the metal like the greaves – especially not the upper arm guard. I may be wrong.

Are they thought to always be made of bronze or where layered linen or leather thought to have also been used?

Also has anyone got any comments on the leather greaves described in the book I mentioned in an earlier post or any of the other references I have mentioned?

Many thanks

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Arm and thigh guards were held in place just like the greaves. Athanasios Porporis from Australia has an arm guard made by manning imperial. Although I think he is using some kind of strap going around his right shoulder, originally the piece must have been supposed to stay in play on itself. the same with the thigh guards,that also in art clearly appear not to have any straps or thongs.
Khaire
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

I take it just bronze is thought then?

I can’t help thinking that if the only way of securely holding in place an accurately made Greek armguard is with some form of attachment or strap the Greeks must have done something similar. I’m sure that if the Greeks could do something like that then they would do it. They would hardly go out of their way not to do something as obvious as this, if it is practical to do it. Soldiers of all periods are practical people – if it makes it easier to fight in armour by attaching a strap or thong they must, in my opinion, have done it! Proving some of these theories however is more difficult!

The idea of hoplites taking the risk of their greaves falling off because their father that they inherited them from had bigger calves than them is absurd to say the least! Even the simplest Hoplite would think of an alternative (and surely not everyone could afford to throw them away and buy their own custom made ones)!

Cliff; a member of the Hoplite Association, recently emailed me regarding the greaves. Unfortunately he is not yet an RAT member but has given permission to post his views. He seems very well informed on the period and says -

‘I think there is a lot of room for interpretation, of the pictures on pottery and the art work of that period.’ It is easy to get a ‘one dimensional view’, as he puts it, but it’s important not to ‘underestimate the Greeks’ considering all the things they could do!

It’s not evidence of any kind, I know, but worth thinking about. )

In Osprey book The Mycenaean C.1650-1100 BC by Nicolas Grguric, one of Angus McBride’s illustrations shows ‘Later Infantry 1250-1200 BC’. These infantrymen wear plain bronze greaves which cover the knee and are attached by straps or thongs above the ankle and under the knee. These look like leather straps and come around the outside of the bronze greaves like the much later type used by Alexander’s troops. I doubt there would be any still in use by 5th C BC though.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

First,as you said,do not underestimate the Greeks.Relying on a thong to keep their greaves,arm and thigh armor is at least underestimating them.Not all hoplites were wearing greaves,even in the beginning of the 5th century.Those who did were the aristocracy usually-those who could afford them. Most of the aristocratic youths today drive their own sports car rather their fathers' limo. Armour relying on thongs is always most likely tho fall apart, especially regarding leg and arm guards.And i haven't worn accurate greaves,for example those from manning imperial,but those who have,say that they fit perfectly.the later examples that do have straps and thongs are also covering the entire leg and are not like the the earlier mycenean pates. From my experience, the thongs are getting loose as you walk and according to position of the leg(the calf is getting bigger or thiner according to the position).In Alexander's army still very many of the greaves would be the same as the fifth century ones.Like all the greaves found in the Vergina tombs.
I never trust everything in a McBride painting.Most of those I have seen have inaccuracies. And as you said the period is far away from the fifth century.
You have already seen things on 4th century greaves.It is much safer to transfer one of those methods in your 5th century greaves,than make any other speculation,as I don't think there is THAT much room for interpretation in that matter.
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

I take it just bronze is thought then?

Yup, unless you can find a clear ancient reference to leather or linen.

I can’t help thinking that if the only way of securely holding in place an accurately made Greek armguard is with some form of attachment or strap the Greeks must have done something similar. I’m sure that if the Greeks could do something like that then they would do it.

Not a safe theory, I'm afraid! Those pieces were all custom-made by craftsmen who regularly produced metalwork that we have yet to reproduce even in approximation. If they wanted to make a greave or armguard that sprung onto the limb and stayed put, they did. And I've never seen ANY suggestion that the Greeks were at all inclined to find an "easier and better" way to do anything!

They would hardly go out of their way not to do something as obvious as this, if it is practical to do it. Soldiers of all periods are practical people – if it makes it easier to fight in armour by attaching a strap or thong they must, in my opinion, have done it!

You'll be happier in your hobby if you give up those quaint old ideas! None of them hold up to the evidence. The ancients simply had radically different ideas of "practical" and "necessary" than we do today. All we can do is get the best idea of HOW something was done by looking at all the primary evidence we have, and not worry about "WHY". Assuming that we know how folks back then were thinking is unsafe and misleading. Everything I've learned about the Classical Greeks has only convinced me that they had committees to figure out the HARDEST way to do ANYthing!

The idea of hoplites taking the risk of their greaves falling off because their father that they inherited them from had bigger calves than them is absurd to say the least! Even the simplest Hoplite would think of an alternative (and surely not everyone could afford to throw them away and buy their own custom made ones)!

Who says things like that were inherited? When any young man first served as a hoplite, most likely his father was still active and would need his greaves. The son would get his own greaves, custom-made like anyone else in his social and economic class. That's what being a hoplite was all about. If you couldn't afford to be a hoplite, you were not one! If you needed an alternative to proper bronze greaves, it was simple: bare legs.

In Osprey book The Mycenaean C.1650-1100 BC by Nicolas Grguric, one of Angus McBride’s illustrations shows ‘Later Infantry 1250-1200 BC’. These infantrymen wear plain bronze greaves which cover the knee and are attached by straps or thongs above the ankle and under the knee. These look like leather straps and come around the outside of the bronze greaves like the much later type used by Alexander’s troops. I doubt there would be any still in use by 5th C BC though.

Right, even if the dates are fixed (by knocking 300 years off all Bronze Age dates), stuff that early only superficially resembles anything from the Archaic or Classical era. Plus, as others have said, a McBride illustration can be wildly speculative, especially in this case. If that's the reconstruction of the Warrior Vase guys that you're referring to, here's a photo of the vase:

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/ ... etail2.jpg

Talk about hard to interpret! This vase alone could be the study of a whole book, and the possibilities are almost unlimited...

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/WVase1.jpg
http://www.larp.com/hoplite/WVase2.jpg

That's not a very good Osprey book, by the way. Connolly's "Ancient Greece of Odysseus" is vastly better for illustrations.

Khaire!

Matthew

[Pericles of Rhodes]

First I apologise if I’ve offended anyone with my ideas. I was not implying the Greeks could not make such good quality armour/greaves or even that the poorer quality ones where more common just that adapted greaves could have been in use for the less well off soldiers.

Regarding the armguard I said that

if the only way of securely holding in place an accurately made Greek armguard is with some form of attachment or strap

.
It is clear that the reason it is thought not to stay up is that this is not an entirely accurate reproduction.

Yes the Osprey reference was a long shot!

I’m not sure what you mean by my “quaint old ideasâ€