hello!..and advice on greaves?

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Hi everyone!

I've just joined the forum so this is my first post! I'm a member of two re enactment groups (not classical I’m afraid) one is Dark Age and the other 14th C medieval but I have always had a keen interest in Classical Greece! I seriously thought about joining the Hoplite Association at one point but what with being a member of two other societies I thought it best to wait until I can give membership my full attention (juggling two groups is hard enough!) maybe one day!

I’ve enjoyed reading the discussions here and found the info very useful so I was wondering if you could give me some advice.

I have experimented with making some armour out of different materials including a pair of Greek greaves I made for fun quite a while ago. These are somewhat roughly made and because of this they don’t stay on by their own elasticity as I know they should. I hope I’m not opening up a can of worms and no doubt I will receive shouts of ‘Blasphemy!’ when I ask this, but are there any authentic ways of attaching Greek (5th C BC) greaves to the leg? I would have thought this was out of the question but I may have some ‘evidence’ I’d like to run past you -

I have recently read Christopher Webbers Osprey book on the Thracians. One part interested me particularly about Greek/ Thracian greaves on page 24 -

'Greaves of Greek type were rarer than other pieces of imported armour, and only three pairs have been found in Thrace.....This pair had also been fitted with iron chains at the back. Most where held in place by their own elasticity, except for some Hellenistic examples which where strapped. A 4th century pair from Pletena has traces of the tying straps below the knee and above the ankle.'

I've tried to email Christopher Webber (author of the osprey book -The Thracians amongst others) through Osprey but no luck!

I don’t know how the chains where attached or how it held it to the leg though!

If anyone knows about this or has any photos or sketches this would be a great help also I don’t know if this is a Thracian addition or Greek design, or indeed what time period it is it from!

The bit saying 'some Hellenistic examples which where strapped' interested me. Does this mean the Greeks/ Greek people (in turkey?) strapped their greaves on sometimes? Not quite sure what Hellenistic means in this context.

This method seems likely as this became the best way of attaching them in later periods (e.g. medieval). Does anyone know of these examples? Where these strapped greaves used by Greeks and when where they used (century)? When he says ‘strapped’ I think of two sets of straps on each greave riveted to the edge of the greave and attached and tightened with buckles (as with early medieval examples). This seems the most obvious way to do it to secure them but is this the way Greeks and Thracians did it?
I have some other possible references for the strapped greaves somewhere but this seemed most likely to be accurate reference.

Buckles are another interest of mine. Strange though that sounds to say! do you know when buckles first appeared in Greece? I know the Romans had them and I presumed Iron Age Celtic peoples had them too but I haven’t seen many Greek examples although I do recall something about a buckle on a cuirass in one of Peter Connolly’s books. Did the Greeks have buckled belts/armour or greaves?

Sorry for all the questions (it’s what happens when you’ve got no one to answer them for you)! Any help you can give me would be fantastic and very helpful!

George

[Caballo]

Welcome to another Surrey dweller! Can't help your query , I'm afraid, but good to have you on the forum!
Cheers

Caballo

[hoplite14gr]

Hello George.

Buckles appear in Greece from the Bronze Age.
In the National Museum in Athens we have some examples.
The most known is one depicting a winged griffin.
Samples from the Geometric period include a double spiral in the Agora Museum.

Square-type with menander decoration have been found in various locations.
Some Hellenistic period appeared in the "Thessalian Trasures" exibition last year.

Bronze Age matalic grieves appear to have been strapped on composite leg armor. Classical grieves used the metal's elasticity to be attached on the leg. But some fragments in the Agora Museum and Olympia Museum give indigation of thong usage.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi George and wellcome. The Hellenistic greaves(Greaves of all the Hellenic world after the death of Alexander) had straps wrapped around the knee and ankle. I have never seen backles in such tying,but it is possible they were tied without a backle. Sorry for not taking the time to upload actual sculptures,but this is how they would look like(Don't trust every single detail in this painting,but the greaves are generally ok)
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... charge.jpg
A pair of greaves from Campania(4th c bc) has two very small rings riveted behind the knee and another pair behind the ankle.
You mentioned Connolly.In Greece and Rome at War you'll see many accurate examples of strapped greaves (p71, p78, p80, p106, p107, p109)
Beware.all these greaves covered the leg from all sides,like the earlier types. The straps were added for extra ensurance.
Khaire
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thank you Stefanos and Giannis for your valuable advice! It is much appreciated, and thank you to everyone who replied for such a warm welcome!

It would seem from your info that thonging is the way forward for authentically attaching 5th C BC greaves, but straps with buckles are not an option (despite buckles being available at that time).

Stefanos - for the examples you mention in the Agora Museum and Olympia Museum that suggest thong use, do you know what time period these are roughly? When you mention thonging I imagine a number of holes drilled in each side of the edge of the greave with leather thonging laced through it in a zig zag pattern. Is this the kind of thing you mean? I don’t suppose you’ve got a link/sketch/photo of these greaves? I’ve had a look on the internet but no luck yet!

Also with regard to buckles in classical Greece – what where they used for? It would seem not for attaching greaves! did 5th C Greek civilians and hoplites wear bucked belts and baldrics (sword shoulder belts)?

Giannis – thank you for your information, I am getting Connolly’s Greece and Rome at war for Christmas so will have a search through it then!

Thank you both for all the help! Laudes for both of you (whatever that does!)

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Ha ha.Laudes comes from aplaudes and it does nothing other than being a form of permanent "thank you" for a particular helpful or interesting post
Backles I know for sure were used to attach cuirass plates.They were not used for baldricks and I don't know about belts,but I haven't seen anything like that.Perhaps for cavalry equipment???
Good choice to get Connolly for Christmas.
Khaire
Giannis

[Dan Diffendale]

Laudes for both of you (whatever that does!)

Laudes comes from aplaudes

Actually, laudes is the plural of the Latin word laus, "praise" or "glory," with an English derivative "laud" as in "All glory, lauds, and honour"...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Forgive a not native English speaker...somewhere around here I had read something about laudes and aplaudes,but even if no connection between them,it does make some sort of sense,doesn't it? :lol: :roll:

[hoplite14gr]

Laudes from me Dan for the explanation.

George, your assumption on the B.A grieves is correct.
The "Kallithea grieves" have holes.
M. Amt's reconstruction is the best in my opinion:
http://larp.com/hoplite/myc1.jpg

Homer talks about the bucked belt of Menelaos.
Giannis right the Greeks did not seem to use buckles in baldricks

Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks Stefanos!

The greaves you describe (Kallithea) that M.Amt has are Bronze Age (B.A) greaves and so are of a bit earlier time period than I was thinking of. The greaves I’ve made are (roughly) 5th C BC greaves like the ones that clip on by the metals own elasticity (full length, with dished out knees and covering most way round of the leg).

When you talked about thonged greaves before you mention Bronze Age greaves and then said-

Classical grieves used the metal's elasticity to be attached on the leg. But some fragments in the Agora Museum and Olympia Museum give indigation of thong usage.

I presumed this meant that in the Agora and Olympia museum there are examples of classical greaves that are thought to have been laced together with thongs of leather; rather than Bronze Age greaves. My idea of 'classical' is around 5thC BC - i may be wrong. Do you know what period these greaves come from and do they lace leather thongs through holes in the metal as I described?

I’m looking for an alternative method from the same period as clipped on greaves (5th BC).

Thanks again for your help!

[Matthew Amt]

Khairete!

Yup, my Kallithea greaves are way too early for this. And they actually have a wire sort of zig-zag on each side for the laces:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/mycgrv1.jpg

It's always more complicated than just a hole!

My Classical greaves are the full wrap-around clip-on type.

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/hopside.jpg

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/hoplft.jpg

I made them myself out of 18 gauge bronze, and they were a PAIN to make! A pain to wear, too, if I don't put enough padding under them. A trained armorer could do a much better job and actually make them fit the leg. Mine are too straight, they don't really follow the subtle curve of the lower leg. So they tend to chew on my ankles. And the metal is too thick, so getting them on and off is painful, as well! Go 20 gauge.

By the Hellenistic era they had figured out that most grunts don't need such custom-fit aristocratic niceties, and greaves started to cover just the shin, with a couple straps to hold them on. Too easy by comparison, though they'd still be nicely curved, dished over knee, etc. I don't know just when that type appeared in Greece, however! Had to be after the Persian Wars, at least. Laces or straps were more common in Italy during the Classical period.

One of the secrets to a good greave of any kind is that it is supported by the calf muscle. It should NOT be riding on the top of your foot. Any strap at the ankle is simply to control the bottom and keep it from flopping around--the weight is supported by whatever strap (or metal) goes behind the leg above the calf muscle. It helps to have really meaty manly calves!

Deepeeka makes a reasonably decent-looking pair of greaves, but only in one size. LARGE! If you are blessed with meaty manly legs, they might fit. Otherwise, you might be stuck having a pair custom-made. Your wallet will hurt, but your legs will thank you!

Matthew

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks for the info Matthew and for your website which is very useful! yeah, making or buying new greaves would be a possibility but after making these ones (albeit a while ago) I was trying to find someway of using them authentically which means attaching them in some way other than by their own elasticity to stay securely on the leg. As I say the fact that in the 5th C (the time period I want to portray) hoplites generally wore clip on greaves doesn’t help which is why I’m trying to research other options (there must have been some, perhaps for those hoplites who couldn’t afford the posh clip on greaves or just for security). There have been a couple of glimmers of hope from Christopher Webbers ‘The Thracians’ book and Stefanos (see other posts)! I’m very interested in the Italian strapped/laced greaves you mentioned. You say they are ‘Classical’ greaves (which gives me hope) but do you know of any examples and any dates/pictures would be fantastic!

Stefanos – thanks for all your advice so far! Any luck with the thonged greaves from the Agora and Olympia Museum? (RE my last post)

Thanks again to both of you, your advice and knowledge are greatly appreciated!

[Susanne]

Welcome to RAT, George!

Tim Mayhew from The Hoplite Association is an experienced smith (making all sorts of Greek stuff) and could give you some advice on this.

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thanks Susanne! do you have any contact info so i can get in touch with him? (email etc)

In other news...

Apologies for bumping (if that’s the right term). I’ve found everyone’s comments extremely helpful. I’m just posting the references to greave attachments I have. None of them are undeniable proof (like digging up a pair!) but they made me think it was possible.

The link below is for Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities edited William Smith (1870). See the description under ‘OCREA’. I found the mention of the sponge, described by Aristotle, interesting (working like high density foam or padding). It also says that –

‘as they (the Greaves) were fitted with great exactness to the leg, probably required, in many cases, no other fastening than their own elasticity. Often, nevertheless, they were further secured by two straps’

He mentions a figure now in Munich belonging to the temple in Aegina as evidence (which I believe date to about 5thC BC) but the woodcut he provides doesn’t seem to prove much, and after a web search I haven’t managed to find a picture of it (Munich is a bit far for me!) Scroll down on the site for a typed out version of the text.

http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0829.html

Another bit of info is from the link below. Just below the sketch of the greaves of Achilles it says –

‘Greaves or in Greek Knimis, The greaves made of flexible metal and lined with felt, leather or cloth, were "sprung on" the leg, and then fastened behind by straps or buckles. Like the cuirass, they were mde to fit the individual person. (White and Morgan, illustrated dictionary of Xenophon's Anabasis)’

Xenophon lived between 431 B.C. and 354 B.C. so he wrote it around the right time period for my 5th C BC idea to work.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/Armor2.htm

Also on page 109 of ‘Warfare in the Ancient world’ by Richard Humble he writes (in the section ‘Greece: the power and the glory’) -

‘Greaves survived for most of the fifth century before they too went out of fashion in the increasing trend toward lightness and mobility. Leather greaves had always been popular with the less-well-off citizens: they gave adequate protection to the knee and shin’.

If this is correct the 5th C leather greaves could not have been held on by elasticity like the bronze and must have had another method of fastening. I don’t know whether Mr Humble’s statements are accurate but it was one of the bits of evidence that made me think that there might be alternative attaching methods.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Warfare-Ancient ... 235&sr=8-2

And then of course there’s the bit from Christopher Webbers ‘Thracians’ I mentioned in my first post.

Feel free to comment on the references. I realise that they may have made mistakes or be inaccurate.

... and apologies about the quantity of info! just hoping some of it is right!

Thanks everyone!

[hoplite14gr]

The Aphaea temple is Archaic period 750 to 500 B.C.
Sorry not much time for museums-too much works.
Armor pieces never went out of fashion only economics was the issue.

Also remember weapons were handed down from generation to generation.
So imagine some one wearing a hellenistic iron cuirrass, his dad's "classic" pilos helmet or even grandphather's "archaic" grieves.

Ancient library article is most probably correct.
Also check the victorian reconstructions of Sir Lawren's Alma-Tadema
This gentleman had seen organic pieces on ancient staff lost to us now and he seem to knows what he was painting.

Kind regards