Marching in step

[hoplite14gr]

While searching in the Google I came accross a group called "DAEMONIA NYMPHI". They used ancient musical instuments and I think will be goo to be checked by those who are intersted in ancient music.
I think thy had military music too.
Kind regards
Stefanos

[Crispvs]

Robert,

As a possible set of answers to your questions:

1) We find that after several years of doing fifteen or more shows a year, as well as several training weekends a year we all tend to march with about the same length of stride. New recruits quickly pick it up off the older members of the group. It is true that much of the time one of the officers calls the step to keep everyone marching in time but at other times the rhythmic sounds of footsteps, jingling aprons and weapons knocking against armour, along with the visual sign of the movement of the shoulders of the men in front, tend to keep everyone more of less in step anyway.
However, whilst doing what amounted to route marches along Hadrian's Wall last year over uneven and often broken ground we found that it was virtualy impossible to keep in step with each other, although it was not hard to keep moving in proper ranks and files, albeit with a slightly more open order. On even ground it was easy to stay in step and overall this seemed to allow us to move faster. I would suggest, then, that marching in step is useful and preferable for both battlefield manouvers and marching over fairly smooth ground but during route marches over broken ground formation coherancy is more important than the exact timing of steps. I don't know if that is what the Romans found but it is certainly what we have experienced.

2) See 1) above. It is also worth noting that over a distance or in a wind shouted commands quickly become indistinct and thus confusing. Every century (during the period I normally represent at any rate) included a trumpeter and I would suggest that this man probably stayed very close to the centurio and converted his spoken commands into 'bugle' calls which could be more easily heard. These trumpet blasts could also be passed down the length of a marching column fairly quickly as well. It is perhaps also worth remembering that Roman soldiers, like soldiers of most other periods, almost certainly sang songs while they marched, which would probably be rhythmic and would thus encourage keeping in step.

3) I can't answer that one. We use "sin, dex, sin".

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

From 'De Re Militari":

MONTHLY MARCHES
The foot were obliged to march completely armed the distance of ten miles from the camp and return, in the most exact order and with the military step which they changed and quickened on some part of the march.

THE DRILLING OF THE TROOPS
In short, both legionary and auxiliary troops should continually be drilled in cutting wood, carrying burdens, passing ditches, swimming in the sea or in rivers, marching in the full step and even running with their arms and baggage, so that, inured to labor in peace, they may find no difficulty in war. For, as the well trained soldier is eager for action, so does the untaught fear it. In war discipline is superior to strength; but if that discipline is neglected, there is no longer any difference between the soldier and the peasant.

INITIAL TRAINING
The first thing the soldiers are to be taught is the military step, which can only be acquired by constant practice of marching quick and together. Nor is anything of more consequence either on the march or in the line than that they should keep their ranks with the greatest exactness. For troops who march in an irregular and disorderly manner are always in great danger of being defeated. They should march with the common military step.....

[url:14944ulx]http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/other/vegetius.htm[/url]

[Praefectusclassis]

the military step

Latin please... :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

FLAVI VEGETI RENATI VIRI INLUSTRIS COMITIS
EPITOMA REI MILITARIS LIBRI IIII

Liber I.ix:
Primis ergo meditationum auspiciis tirones militarem edocendi sunt gradum. Nihil enim magis in itinere uel in acie custodiendum est, quam ut omnes milites incedendi ordinem seruent. Quod aliter non potest fieri, nisi assiduo exercitio ambulare celeriter et aequaliter discant. Periculum enim ab hostibus semper grauissimum sustinet diuisus et inordinatus exercitus. Militari ergo gradu XX milia passuum horis quinque dumtaxat aestiuis conficienda sunt. Pleno autem gradu, qui citatior est, totidem horis XXIIII milia peragenda sunt. Quicquid addideris, iam cursus est, cuius spatium non potest definiri.
The first thing the soldiers are to be taught is the military step, which can only be acquired by constant practice of marching quick and together. Nor is anything of more consequence either on the march or in the line than that they should keep their ranks with the greatest exactness. For troops who march in an irregular and disorderly manner are always in great danger of being defeated. They should march with the common military step twenty miles in five summer-hours, and with the full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles in the same number of hours. If they exceed this pace, they no longer march but run, and no certain rate can be assigned.

Liber I.xxvii:
Decem milia passuum armati instructique omnibus telis pedites militari gradu ire ac redire iubebantur in castra, ita ut aliquam itineris partem cursu alacriore conficerent.
The foot were obliged to march completely armed the distance of ten miles from the camp and return, in the most exact order and with the military step which they changed and quickened on some part of the march.

Liber II.xxiii:
Ceteris autem etiam hibernis diebus, si niues tantum pluuiaeque cessarent, exerceri cogebantur in campo, ne intermissa consuetudo et animos militum debilitaret et corpora. Siluam caedere, portare onera, transilire fossas, natare in mari siue fluminibus, gradu pleno ambulare uel currere etiam armatos cum sarcinis suis frequentissime conuenit, ut cotidiani laboris usus in pace difficilis non uideatur in bello.
But even in winter, if it did not rain or snow, they were obliged to perform their drills in the field, lest an intermission of discipline should affect both the courage and constitution of the soldier. In short, both legionary and auxiliary troops should continually be drilled in cutting wood, carrying burdens, passing ditches, swimming in the sea or in rivers, marching in the full step and even running with their arms and baggage, so that, inured to labor in peace, they may find no difficulty in war.

[Praefectusclassis]

Ok. Thanks Militari gradu then, by the military step.
Which means what? Speed? Rhythm?

[ambrosius]

But if you want to hear something which may be like music heard in (late) Roman times, listen to some Ambrosian Chant. It's the oldest form of Church music and first dates to the time of St Ambrose. It's unlikely to be much like soldiers' songs though.

You kiddin'? (To the rhythm of a 'jodie'):

"We got swords that stab and cut... (We got swords that stab and cut),
We like kickin' Saxon butt... (We like kickin' Saxon butt);
Kick 'em all the live-long-day... (Kick 'em all the live-long-day)
Watch those suckers sail away... (Watch those suckers sail away)."

Now that's a REAL Ambrosian chant! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ambrosius

[Tarbicus]

Thanks Vorti, I was about to say all that :? not

As a note. the step and the pace seem to be different. This was discussed in-depth on RAG, and someone came up with the reason why Vegetius was spot-on with his estimates for mileage per day by timing the pace (I tried it too) which is 2 footsteps. It all had to do with a Roman day in summer was so many hours from dawn until dusk, and the key is to not think of a day in modern terms. Anyway, I understand that if the column is not IN step then the column kind of gets disorganised and the guys to the rear are impeded and it all gets messy. It was on here that I'm sure it was sourced, but it's late and I can't find the thread right now. I'll search for it after some kip.

[Robert Vermaat]

OK, so we have a military step.
So how did they keep in step.
Why not blurt it out: what's against using the sin-dex-sin-dex stuff most of us use today?
Apart from that it's totally speculative, of course?

[Crispvs]

Might I politely point to what I said above?

Crispvs :?

[Robert Vermaat]

Might I politely point to what I said above?

Yes, I know, you said:

I can't answer that one. We use "sin, dex, sin".

Anyone else, maybe?

[Crispvs]

Sorry Robert,

I didn't realise you were referring only to your third point.

I think sin-dex-sin is a real possibility but I also suspect that this has at least as much to do with the world I have grown up with as it has to do with real probabilities.
I do think, as I said above, that it is possible that marching armies in Roman times would have sung on the march, as I understand most armies did until well into the twentieth century. The song / songs Suetonius quotes which were sung during Caesar's triumph are likely to have been marching songs, given that they are quite rhythmic and may well have been sung by the soldiers as they marched rather than during any phases of standing still. This is supposition of course but is does tend to be true that massed rhythmic singing not only maintains morale but also regularises step. As I also suggested above, I think a series of correctly timed trumpet blasts from time to time could have helped to maintain a regular step which would otherwise be maintained by singing, the rhythmic knocking and jingling of equipment and the sight of the rising and falling shoulders of the men in front.

Crispvs