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08-17-2003, 09:58 PM

I've seen references on re-enactment web sites to getting soldiers OUT of the habbit of marching in step (sin, sin, sin dex sin) - how do we know Romans did not march in step?

08-17-2003, 11:13 PM

good question. i think marching in step kinda goze along with the 4/4 cadence of military music. so, if the roman army had military marches, or even drummers banging out a bass line they may very well have marched in step. we do know that the army had drums, cornicens and an indian kinda bagbipe thingy, but whether these, or other instruments were used to play marches, or accompany songs, to relieve the tedium of marching, or just to transmit orders during battles, i haven't a clue. all ancient peoples had a musical aspect to their cultures, some i am sure more sophisticated than others, and the roman empire, including just about everybody, must have had quite an available repetoire. to think that they would not have adapted any of this to the army's use is hard to accept. 
 
i would also think that when forming a turtle, keeping all the ducks in a row would be a requirement for a successful turtle-as an out of step legionaire might just cause an unwanted opening. so, perhaps they kept a marching order sometimes, and sometimes not.

Matthew Amt · 08-18-2003, 02:19 AM

Avete! 
I think it is Vegetius who says there are two speeds or strides for marching, one for normal use and the other faster for forced marches. That sort of implies marching in step, but isn't really solid. There is nothing else that I know of for evidence. 
 
The did NOT use drums, apparently! Not a single reference, depiction, or archeological find over several hundred years. Nor do we know anything about their musical cadences--a "military" 4/4 rhythym might have been completely alien to them, for all we know. We know the various horns were used for signalling and passing commands, but I don't recall if any are said to be used for marching music. 
 
All that said, in Legio XX we do tend to march in step, more or less, but I think that even when it is "less" our formations hold together just fine. We aren't using a normal stride in a testudo, anyway, for instance. 
 
I think it IS a mistake to do anything that sounds like modern cadence calling, just cuz it sounds modern with no evidence to back it up. When we are advancing in battle line, we usually chant, "RO-ma, RO-ma, RO-ma". 
 
Wish we knew more! Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

08-18-2003, 10:51 AM

I have been told that a bridge sign has been found from Roman times giving the instruction "break step" although I cannot find a cite for this.

08-18-2003, 06:20 PM

Salve, 
 
The steps mentioned in Vegetius differed in length and are not necessarily cadenced (the text at least does not specify it as such). 
 
Military music is attested in use for signalling, but not for setting any cadence: 
 
Vegetius Epitoma 2.22. 
 
Habet praeterea legio tubicines cornicines bucinatores. Tubicen ad bellum vocat milites et rursum receptui canit. Cornicines quotiens canunt, non milites sed signa ad eorum obtemperant nutum. Ergo quotiens ad aliquod opus exituri sunt soli milites, tubicines canunt, quotiens movenda sunt signa, cornicines canunt; quotiens antem pugnatur, et tubicines et cornicines pariter canunt. Classicum item appellatur quod bucinatores per cornu dicunt. Hoc insigne videtur imperii, quia classicum canitur imperatore praesente vel cum in militem capitaliter animadvertitur, quia hoc ex imperatoris legibus fieri necesse est. Sive ergo ad vigilias vel agrarias faciendas sive ad opus aliquod vel ad decursionem campi exeunt milites, tubicine vocante operantur et rursus tubicine admonente cessant. Cum autem moventur signa aut iam mota figenda sunt, cornicines canunt. Quod ideo in omnibus exercitiis et processionibus custoditur, ut in ipsa pugna facilius obtemperent milites, sive eos pugnare sive stare sive sequi uel redire praeceperint duces; siquidem ratio manifesta sit semper in otio debere fieri quod necessario faciendum videtur in proelio. 
 
'Besides the legion used to have tubicines, cornicines and bucinatores. The tubicen called the soldiers to war and sounded the return. Whenever the cornicinessound, not the soldiers but the standards used to obey their call. Therefore whenever only the soldiers are to go out on some job, the tubicines sound, whenever the standards are to be moved, the cornicines sound; whenever combat takes place, both tubicines and cornicines sound together. What bucinatores signal using the horn is called the classicum. This is regarded as the symbol of command, because the classicum is sounded when the commander-in-chief is present or when the death sentence is inflicted on a soldier, because this is necessarily takes place according to the laws of the commander-in-chief. For this reason when the soldiers are to turn out for pulling guard duty or work in the field or work of some kind or training at the exercise field they are signalled with a blast of a sounding tubicen and stop again when a tubicen signals them to do so. When on the other hand the standards are moved or motions are to be moved, the cornicines sound. This must for this reason be observed in all exercises and parades, in order that the soldiers obey more easily in battles, be it that their commanders order them to fight, to halt, to follow or to retire: for it is plain common sense that what seems necessary to happen in combat must always happen in time of peace.' 
 
The only possible reference to a cadence (short-short-long) is in Ammianus for a battle formation, not a marching order: 
 
Ammianus 24.6.10. 
 
Ergo ubi vicissim contiguae se cernerent partes, cristatis galeis corusci Romani vibrantesque clipeos velut pedis anapaesti praecinentibus modulis lenius procedebant,... 
 
'Therefore, where the nearing sides could both discern each other, the Romans gleaming with their crested helmets and knocking their shields as playing a tune to the anapest foot advanced slowly,...' 
 
Songs from a military context are attested for triumphal processions (Suetonius, [I]Divus Iulius[/i]) and dancing songs (SHA). 
 
...Refert Theoclius, Caesareanorum temporum scriptor, Aurelianum manu sua bello Sarmatico una die quadraginta et octo interfecisse, plurimis autem et diversis diebus ultra nongentos quinquaginta, adeo ut etiam ballistia pueri et saltatiunculas <in> Aurelianum tales {componerent}, quibus diebus festis militariter saltitarent : 
 
Mille mille mille decollavimus. 
Unus homo! mille decollavimus. 
Mille bibat qui mille occidit. 
Tantum vini nemo habet, quantum fudit sanguinis. 
 
VII. Idem apud Mogontiacum tribunus legionis sextae Gallicanae Francos inruentes, cum vagarentur per totam Galliam, sic adflixit, ut trecentos ex his captos septingentis interemptis sub corona vendiderit. Unde iterum de eo facta est cantilena : 
 
Mille Sarmates, mille Francos semel et semel occidimus, mille Persas quaerimus 
 
... 
 
'... Theoclius, the author of the times of the Caesars, relates that Aurelianus has killed forty eight with his own hand in one day during the Sarmatian war, over several different days though over nine hundred and fifty, so that boys composed dancing songs of this kind on Aurelianus, which they sang on military festival days: 
 
Thousand, thousand, thousand have we beheaded 
One man! A thousand have we beheaded 
Let him drink a thousand, who kills a thousand 
No one has that much wine, as he has spilled blood 
 
Likewise as tribune of the sixth Gallican legion he had smashed the invading Franks, when they were wandering about the whole of Gaul (bar one little village, bravely resisting them thanks to a magic potion, one would guess), so that he had offered three hundred prisoners from those while seven hundred had been killed under his crown. Therefore again a dancing song was composed on him: 
 
Thousand Sarmatians, thousand Franks have we killed time and again, we are looking for a thousand Persians 
 
...' 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

08-18-2003, 09:53 PM

I have found this from Thucydides - obviously not Roman, but it sems relevant - about the Spartans at Mantinea in 418BC: 
 
"LXX. After this they joined battle, the Argives and their allies advancing with haste and fury, the Lacedaemonians slowly and to the music of many flute-players--a standing institution in their army, that has nothing to do with religion, but is meant to make them advance evenly, stepping in time, without breaking their order, as large armies are apt to do in the moment of engaging. " 
 
(emphasis is mine)

08-19-2003, 09:41 AM

The way Ammianus talks about that "anapaest step", suggests that it was a well known thing, since he doesn't give any explanation about it, just that the soldiers bang their shield in rythm with the step. 
I've read in a book about the late roman army that this was a slow step and that it was of spartan origin, i.e. the classical greek phalanx advancing to the tune of the auletes. 
What does "anapaest" mean? Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://localhost:1094/Homesteads/_1750094854/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 8/19/03 11:52 am

08-20-2003, 01:06 PM

I've heard this bridge story as well, but without the original latin wording, it's impossible to say what it means. Does it actually say "break step" in latin?, in which case it might equally well mean "Tread lightly" or is it some other phrase which has been taken, with hindsight, to be a warning about the safety of the bridge? 
There is no reason why they should have used the latin for "break step" to mean the same thing as its English equivalent, neither is there any reason why marching out of step could not be described by some other term. 
We need a latinist who knows what words are used in the various sources, to tell us. 
 
Re. the drums, according to a recent radio talk, drums were considered female instruments, presumably because they have a membrane, and not therefore appropriate for martial purposes. I believe there are ancient sources which clearly state that the cornu and the bucina were expressely for relaying commands, the one to the standard-bearers, the other to the soldiers. I don't think there'd be much future in trying to sound either of these continuously, when on the march.

**Robert Vermaat** · 08-20-2003, 02:00 PM

So much for the (hollywood?) image of slaves rowing the war-galleys at the rythmic beating of a large drum... 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

08-20-2003, 06:04 PM

The roman army did not use drums. If it had, it would appear in the archaeological, or epigraphic, or literary record. 
In all of these sources the only muscial instruments associated with the military are horns of different sizes and shapes. 
However percussion instruments were known to the romans: the tambourine, the egyptian "sistre" (I dunno the english name. It's that rattle instrument) and the castanets of spanish fame. It seems they were considered "civilian" instruments. 
And yes indeed, in most depictions of a tambourine player we see a woman playing the instrument.

Frank Miranda · 08-20-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:<hr> have found this from Thucydides - obviously not Roman, but it sems relevant - about the Spartans at Mantinea in 418BC: 
 
"LXX. After this they joined battle, the Argives and their allies advancing with haste and fury, the Lacedaemonians slowly and to the music of many flute-players--a standing institution in their army, that has nothing to do with religion, but is meant to make them advance evenly, stepping in time, without breaking their order, as large armies are apt to do in the moment of engaging. " 
 
(emphasis is mine) <hr> 
 
Ammianus also mentions Julian- while undergoing military training- practicing the pyrrhic march step which was accompanied by the flute (5..

08-21-2003, 03:57 AM

I've needed to get ammianus for my library for years now - so he and Appian are now on their way from Amazon to fill in those 2 gaps!!

Frank Miranda · 08-22-2003, 05:43 PM

Well, you've made a wise decision there Stickers- got to have Ammianus in your library! You should also add Maurice's Strategikon if you haven't already. 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=frankmiranda>Frank Miranda</A> at: 8/22/03 7:45 pm

08-22-2003, 07:46 PM

Anapest (usually listed in glossaries or any dictionary as a poetic meter) refers to a poetic foot (or the same word in Greek for step: two short, one long syllable; or two light beats, one heavy beat: puh-duh-poom; puh-duh-poom, etc. Your discussion and question put me in mind of something, though my sources are not at hand at the moment, that the Roman "triumph" derives from a three-beat step of Etruscan origin used by the legions: This may be a spurious etymology from Varro, but I'll check on it. There may have been a regular marching rhythm that did not to conform to our concept of 4/4 time.

08-26-2003, 03:18 PM

Is it to be assumed that marching is so intimately linked with the modern 4/4 time of "march" music that one couldn't be done without the other? I think we may have the modern "marching band" thing stuck in our heads so deeply that we cannot separate the two. 
 
I.E. It seems (to me at least) that training soldiers to march is more than just a parade and music exercise. They also learn some team discipline by doing so. It is one of those activities that makes the individuals stride with the others and so becomes a part of the whole unit. Is it completely inconceivable that Romans would have marched in step without music simply for training purposes and because an army "looks" properly trained, uniform and intimidating if walking in step?.

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