Germanic names

[Chilperic]

We also know of Tailali in southern France, completely undetectable but for some slight evidence through some place-names.

Not quite (if I understand you correctly). Gregory of Tours mentions the Taifali of Poitou on two or three occasions in the Ten Books of Histories and in The Life of the Fathers. There is a praefectus laetorum in the area according to the Notitia. Of course exactly when these people were settled there is by no means clear.

The same goes for dozens of Alan settlements in France and Italy during the 5th c.

Except that the sole evidence for these 'dozens' of Alanic settlements in France is the sort of dubious place-name evidence, and nineteenth-century reading thereof, that you castigated in your other post. Historically the only Alan settlements attested in Gaul are one in or near Valence and one in 'Gallia Ulterior' in the region of Auxerre.

Cheers,
Guy

[Robert Vermaat]

Gregory of Tours mentions the Taifali of Poitou on two or three occasions in the Ten Books of Histories and in The Life of the Fathers. There is a praefectus laetorum in the area according to the Notitia. Of course exactly when these people were settled there is by no means clear.

You're absolutely correct. I was writing from memory and mixed things up. :wink:

Except that the sole evidence for these 'dozens' of Alanic settlements in France is the sort of dubious place-name evidence, and nineteenth-century reading thereof, that you castigated in your other post.

Is it? I was under the impression that Kovalevskaja's article was based on more that that:
Kovalevskaja, V.B. (1993): La présence alano-sarmate en Gaule, in: Vallet et Kazanski, L'Armee Romaine, pp. 209-221.

[Chilperic]

Except that the sole evidence for these 'dozens' of Alanic settlements in France is the sort of dubious place-name evidence, and nineteenth-century reading thereof, that you castigated in your other post.

Is it? I was under the impression that Kovalevskaja's article was based on more that that:
Kovalevskaja, V.B. (1993): La présence alano-sarmate en Gaule, in: Vallet et Kazanski, L'Armee Romaine, pp. 209-221.

It's many years since I read that but as I recall I found it extremely dated in its approach even in 1993 (sadly this is still true of most of the output of that school).

Cheers,
Guy

[Alanus]

Salve, Chilperic and those who need assurance that Germans served in Roman Britain.

Yes, Theodoric was Frankish after King Theodoric of the Ostrogoths sent his namesake and relative into a marriage with the Frankish kingdom. The name is also earlier than the Spanish-Roman Theodosian dynasty, and it could very well be that "theo" was a broad Indo-European term.

We should remember that Ammianus Marcellinus mentions two high Roman officers falling in harm's way during the Pictish-Scott-Saxon conspiracy of 367. The probable Dux Britannium, Fullofaudes, was killed outright, evidently near the Wall. Fullofaudes is rather West Germanic, and he was either a Frank or an Alammanus. The second officer was Nectaridus, Count of the Saxon Shore... and Nectarid is East Germanic and most likely Gothic. True, we cannot interview these two officers and ascertain their tribal nationality (if there is such a term!), but these men-- the two highest Romans stationed in Britain-- were Germanic.

By the end of the occupation, most of the foot were removed and the cavalry remained as the last defence in Britain. I hope most of us agree with that. And if that is the case, then we find Alans in Britain as the Taifali. See Herwig Wolfram on their ethnicity. I am not the first to propose Tealby as their retirement community, but it is on the eastern side where we find dragon buckles, perhaps related to the Taifali dragon and pearl shields, a dragon that is not historically or artistically present in Britain until after the stationing of the Equites Taifali Iuniors. The Taifali were most likely also living in Gallic Tiffauges, just south of the larger Alanic communities that settled under King Goar around Orleans. The Alans thrived, and King Sangiban is later recorded as giving the central punch to Attila under the command of Aetius. Gregory of Tours mentions a saintly Taifal living and ministering in Tours, and Alain II headed William the Bastard's cavalry at Hastings.

The Goths and Alans rose to the Imperial heirarchy. Alaric became Magister Militum of Illyricum, Generid became MM of Dalmatia, and Gainas became the big cheese at Constantinople. In the cavalry, Saul the Alan became Master of the Horse in Italy under Flavius Stilicho, Regent of the Western Empire and an East German. Theudebald, recorded by the Welsh as the "diademned prince the legate," would be more likely to be Gothic than West German, especially if he was a horseman. He name rings as "The Bold Prince;" and there is every indication that he was likely to have been a Balth-- the Bold-- and the highest family in the Tyrfingi Gothic culture, as opposed to being a Frank, a tribe not noted for excellent horsemanship, not to say that they were not but they were not recorded as such.

I suppose I am speaking of pobabilities, but much of the above is found in Ammianus, Wolfram, and Gibbon. If I am being crucified for stating that the Goths and Alans were the Empire's top horsemen, and that some of them were stationed in Britain, then I am in good company.

Hailog thein,
A.J. Campbell/Alanus

[Chilperic]

Salve, Chilpric and those who need assurance that Germans served in Roman Britain.

Yes, Theodoric was Frankish after King Theodoric of the Ostrogoths sent his namesake and relative into a marriage with the Frankish kingdom. The name is also earlier than the Spanish-Roman Theodosian dynasty, and it could very well be that "theo" was a broad Indo-European term.

Theuderic was almost certainly born before any Frankish marriage alliance with the Amal house. I have to say that I am unclear about what exactly you mean by Theoderic sending his namesake into a marriage with the Frankish kingdom. Which Theoderic? Which namesake? Theoderic married Audofleda, Clovis' sister. Who 'sent' him to do that?

If Theuderic was named after a Goth then it would have to have been one of the two Gothic kings of Toulouse of that name, but given the long-lasting hostility between the Franks and the Goths of Toulouse (the Franks had killed Theoderic II's brother Frederic in 463 and were raiding as far south as Bordeaux in Theuderic's childhood) that seems highly unlikely. It is unlikely that he was named after one of the two Gothic Theoderics (the Amal and Strabo) operating in the Balkans before 489.

None of this effects the fact that, as far as I can see, there are no recorded Gothic Theudebalds (a name you claimed was as Gothic as could be). All those in the PLRE are Franks, with one Varnus.

I never denied that the 'Thiud'' element was Germanic; just that its popularity in the 5th century may well derive from its resemblance to the 'Theod' element of the imperial dynasty.

Nor do I need reassurance that there were Germani or Germanic-speakers (lumping them all together as 'Germans' is ahistorical) in Roman Britain. I do dispute - indeed reject - the assertion that they constituted 90% of the Roman garrison.

If you wish to debate, please do not misrepresent the opposing views. And it usually helps to support your assertions with evidence, or at least to get your facts straight.

Guy

P.s. The name is spelled Chilperic.

[Chilperic]

We should remember that Ammianus Marcellinus mentions two high Roman officers falling in harm's way during the Pictish-Scott-Saxon conspiracy of 367. The probable Dux Britannium, Fullofaudes, was killed outright, evidently near the Wall. Fullofaudes is rather West Germanic, and he was either a Frank or an Alammanus. The second officer was Nectaridus, Count of the Saxon Shore... and Nectarid is East Germanic and most likely Gothic. True, we cannot interview these two officers and ascertain their tribal nationality (if there is such a term!), but these men-- the two highest Romans stationed in Britain-- were Germanic.

But two Germanic-speaking officers, neither of whom is recorded as Gothic (and no one would deny that non-Romans rose to highrank in the late Empire), does not constitute your alleged 90% of the army in the last centuries of Roman rule.

By the end of the occupation, most of the foot were removed and the cavalry remained as the last defence in Britain. I hope most of us agree with that.

I have to say that I wouldn't as there is no evidence to support the claim.

And if that is the case, then we find Alans in Britain as the Taifali. See Herwig Wolfram on their ethnicity. I am not the first to propose Tealby as their retirement community, but it is on the eastern side where we find dragon buckles, perhaps related to the Taifali dragon and pearl shields, a dragon that is not historically or artistically present in Britain until after the stationing of the Equites Taifali Iuniors.

Dragon buckles? If I correctly understand the metalwork to which you are referring, no one has thought that this was anything other than Roman since at least the early 1970s and Gunther Haseloff's work. As we do not know when the Taifali were stationed in Britain it is quite impossible to state that this motif was or was not present before their stationing.

The Taifali were most likely also living in Gallic Tiffauges, just south of the larger Alanic communities that settled under King Goar around Orleans. The Alans thrived, and King Sangiban is later recorded as giving the central punch to Attila under the command of Aetius. Gregory of Tours mentions a saintly Taifal living and ministering in Tours, and Alain II headed William the Bastard's cavalry at Hastings.

Yes - I mentioned the Taifali above. This has no bearing on Britain. I'm not sure that people still accept that the name Alain is necessarily linked to the Alani. Certainly most of the "evidence" of Alanic settlement quoted by B. Bachrach in his book on the Alans in the West is (as, alas, usual with his work) nonsense.

The Goths and Alans rose to the Imperial heirarchy. Alaric became Magister Militum of Illyricum, Generid became MM of Dalmatia, and Gainas became the big cheese at Constantinople. In the cavalry, Saul the Alan became Master of the Horse in Italy under Flavius Stilicho, Regent of the Western Empire and an East German.

I don't think anyone sane would dispute any of that!

Theudebald, recorded by the Welsh as the "diademned prince the legate," would be more likely to be Gothic than West German, especially if he was a horseman. He name rings as "The Bold Prince;" and there is every indication that he was likely to have been a Balth-- the Bold-- and the highest family in the Tyrfingi Gothic culture, as opposed to being a Frank, a tribe not noted for excellent horsemanship, not to say that they were not but they were not recorded as such.

Recorded where - and when? And why more likely to be Gothic? We don't know he was a horseman. Even if he was, the Franks had effective cavalry and a horsey aristocracy. There is no indication of any sort at all that he was a Balth. If you went by his name he would be Merovingian; and you haven't addressed the fact that all the historical Theudebalds known to us are not Goths. If you are just going on the 'bald' termination and a link with the Balts then you have to remember that '-bald' is an very common name ending in Frankish Gaul. But I suspect that if he existed at all, and this isn't just the frequently seen manipulation of genealogies to include important sounding people - I don't see why he needn't just be a Welsh leader with a Germanic name - like the Breton Theoderic mentioned by Gregory.

I suppose I am speaking of pobabilities, but much of the above is found in Ammianus, Wolfram, and Gibbon. If I am being crucified for stating that the Goths and Alans were the Empire's top horsemen, and that some of them were stationed in Britain, then I am in good company.

The problem is that none of what you are talking about is a 'probability'. Maybe a hypothetical possibility but one without any explicit evidential support and for which there are more economical solutions. Your claim, furthermore, was not that 'the Goths and Alans were the Empire's top horsemen, and that some of them were stationed in Britain' but that 90% of the army in Britain was made up of Germans.

But do we know that Alans and Goths were the Empire's top horsemen, exactly? We know that Gratian's favourite regiment was made of Alans, for sure (and that this was one thing that led to his assassination) and we know that many, many Goths were recruited into the army in the manpower crisis (and it was a crisis of quality, rather than quantity, in my view) after Adrianople. Clearly they were valued but does that make them 'the' top horsemen? Also the date at which this took place (380s and later) makes their presence in Britain problematic. We also know, because Olympiodorus of Thebes tells us so (and Procopius confirms much later), that even by Honorius' reign in the West (thus by 423 at the latest, and Olympiodorus was writing c.425) many of the so-called foederati regiments were not made up of barbarians at all. In my reading, in other words, they had gone the same way as some of the auxilia palatina: high-status units recruited originally from barbarians but later, because of their status, attracting recruits of all sorts. That might have led to non-Germanic-speaking people adopting Germanic names too, as we know they did later in the century.

So, even if this Welsh prince existed and had a Germanic name, there isn't a shred of evidence that makes him a Goth, or even necessarily a Germanic-speaker of any sort.

Cheers,
Guy

[Alanus]

Hailog, Chilperic

I capitulate. Perhaps if I had said, "A significant percentage," it would have been closer. Here is what Simon MacDowall noted, "The eques or ordinary cavalryman was more likely to have been a German (a generic term that you understandably dislike), Sarmatian (which I also find too generic), or Hun than an Italian, and he had probably never seen Rome." In MacDowall's case, "East German" and "Alan" might be more appropriate. As far as I know, Honorius employed Ruan Huns around 408, and Stilicho had a personal Hunnic bodyguard, but neither group were equites in the Roman ranks... because Honoria would give half the kingdom to all of them. Plus the famous ring.

Now we go to Professor Morris, everybody's favorite doddering twit, when he said, "The name of Theodoric, son of Theudebald... is remarkable because it is Germanic... and not only German, but, at this date, specifically Gothic, not yet adopted by the Frankish kings." In typical Morris fashion, he had the scenario wrong and the date a little late. Yet even though Theodoric is just as Frankish as Gothic, I choose to believe Morris' statement in this particular case because he actually may have been correct. Morris, so often wrong, but never as wrong as Wilson and Blackett, appears to be correct in the context he was addressing, a number of post-Roman skirmishes against the Scots in Wales. I believe, through cultural connections between the Tyrfingi Goths (in this case the family of this particular Theodoric) and the Taifali, that here is the long sought link to Arthur, a Alano-Gothic link that extended beyond the Black Sea all the way to China, connecting Asiatic ideas to an island that received the "bear" and "dragon" as protectors, and most likely from the Equites Taifali.

Morris also mentioned cavalry units headed by lesser officers, Marcellus, Agricola, and Boia (possibly a good Frankish or Thuringian name). So it seems that in at least the post-Roman milleau we might have an equal percentage between Romano-Britons and Germans. This, of course, is not the Imperial cavalry-- but perhaps more interesting-- it's the link that countless writers have alluded to during the past two centuries: that the Arthurian military structure was molded after the Imperial cavalry.

I am principally interested in the way one culture influence another, an exchage of ideas and tactics that melded the Goths with Alans until the Taifali spoke the Gothic language. To me, this particular Theodoric can be linked to the highest Tyrfingi family and the Taifali Alans, whereas the Franks were not significantly influenced by the steppe culture... with the exception of the beautiful sword hilts and fibulae they made in the "Black Sea style," a combination of gold, cloisone, and Indic jewels, usually garnets.

When I try to send this thing by clicking "submit" it disappears and I have to write it again, and again.

Glass-noze! Da?
A.J. Campbell/Alanus

[Robert Vermaat]

Theudebald, recorded by the Welsh as the "diademned prince the legate,"

I bet it was not John Morris who said that. This sound more like the dreams about Teithfallt (Teithfall(t), Tuduvalus, Tudwal, Tudwalus, Tydfwlch), from as certain Wilson and Blackett... (isn't that their 'translation' of the word (title?) 'Gwledig'?

[Alanus]

Robert,

You are astute. Wilson and Blackett landed just long enough from the back-side of Mars to translate "legate" to "Gwledig." That whole family scenario/pedigree was also used, in one form or another, by Barber and Pykitt, and maybe others, but with no connection to the Goths. I suppose a difinitve on "gwledig" could be pryed from Darrell Wolcott. But, as you point out, John Morris only claimed that "Theodoric, son of Theudebald" was Gothic, nothing about Theudebald as a gwledig.

A.J. Campbell/Alanus
from the primal forests of Maine

[Ron Andrea]

Greatly enjoying this whole thread. Please continue.

Aren't our arguments becoming circular? The original post concerned Germanic names. Many of the later posts speak of deducing ethnicity from names. If we aren't sure which names belonged to which culture, how do use the name to determine--or even to only suggest--the ethnicity of the named person? Or am I confused?

(Please note, I have moved from Colorado to Virginia.)

[Alanus]

Ron,

You have hit the problem's heart. It seems that Germanic tribal ethnicity is almost impossible to ascertain. Some Germanic leaders had Celtic names (aka the Cimbri) and some Celts had Germanic ones. The most prolific recorders in historical context wrote in Latin, and thus Fraomar became Fraomarius, Generid became Generidus, etc.

I use the only early source-- the bible of Ulfilas-- and therefore overly compensate in terms of Gothic, although similar nameforms were certainly attested in West Germanic languages, as Chilperic has correctly pointed out. Frankly, with so little resources I rather doubt that we can go much further on this subject, although interesting and controversial as it is. I will stand by my allegations that a significant Germanic element, more from the cavalry than the foot, was present in Britain prior to the island's Anglo-Saxonization that slapped the "by" onto Teal. Assuredly, we do not know when the Equites Taifali arrived in Britain, but the window is a small one-- between 380 and 410, if we accept the latter date as an abandonment. And then we have perhaps more Germans, likely East Germanic, posted further north in the Equites Catafractarii. The positioning of the Taifali seems certain, enough for John Conyard's reenacting horsemen, but we have yet to confirm the Catafractarii beyond speculation and possible armor in the National Museums of Scotland. Since the "volunteer" service by good Roman youth was insignificant, we might view these horsemen as Germans, with maybe a few Alans, Celts, or Spaniards in the ala.

Best Regards,

Alanus
A.J. Campbell, horsebow fanatic, barbarian reenactor... and old fart.

[Ron Andrea]

Yes, Alanus, there's a lot of uncertainty with names.

In addition to the Latinization of Germanic and Gothic names, there was also the adoption of Roman names and symbols by native cultures. Sub-Roman Britons gave their children local versions of Roman names, like Tegid (Tacticus) and Custennin (Constantine). And Gildas referred to Maelgwn of Gwynedd as a dragon. (Not to mention the mythic Arthur's patrinym of Pendragon)

One other source document is the Notitia Dignitatum, which mentioned veterans (or the descendents of retired veterans) operating in Britain long after the departure of the legions. (I haven't unpacked all my resources, but I seem to remember one very tantalizing reference, which usually sets Robert Vermaat's teeth on edge as it is so broadly used to support Sarmatians in Britain and the whole Arthurian thing.)

[Alanus]

Ron,

Sorry for getting back to you two days late. I know what you mean. Robert Vermaat and Chilperic seem to believe that there was a negligible or non-existant East Germanic or Alanic presence in late Roman Britain. I believe there was; and if you find that "tantalizer" in the Nottia Dignitatum let me know. It seems to me that if an ala of Equites Taifali reenactors are presently riding in Britain, then there must be a historical foundation for their penchant... and I cannot believe that the original Taifali horsemen were actual Romans from old Roman families. In Britain, we did have men like Agricola and Marcellus active against the Saxons and Scots, but I believe they were Romano-Britons, not "Romans."

I guess I'm championing an old, out of style, notion that "Arthur's men" extended culturally from the Roman cavalry, a position proposed by Rhyes, Collingwood, and later by Ashe. One of the problems, as you note, is the Latinization and also Welshifying of Germanic names. Most interesting is the term "Wledig," defined by Wilson and Blackett, two of the biggest nut-cases in the "field" (WAY OUT in the field!!), as meaning "Legate." I think they are correct... because, even if you are crazed you cannont be all wrong all of the time, and the interpretation makes sense. And it also helps explain the Arthur phenomenon with a link to Theudebald, called "Theithfallt Wledig" in Welsh. According to Rice Rees, his son Tewdrig (Theodoric) was active from 440 to 470, and this puts Theudebald back far enough to have led Roman cavalrymen, perhaps not a probability but a possibility he was the legate in charge of the Equites Taifali. This is conjecture, but it explains the name Uther Pendragon-- aka in Gothic as Ufar Pandraco, "Chief dragonman." The name survives in modern German as "uber."

But this is not the forum for this type of theory. Original Germanic names are pretty much buried under a pile of Latin and Welsh, as you say, and I doubt there is any way to retrieve them beyond speculation.

gooten tag,

Alanus
A.J. Campbell, Speculative Old Geezer

[Ron Andrea]

We can not seek certainty in a period justly called the Dark Ages. The few written sources of those times were biased and unreliable to start with.

We'll probably never know who Arthur was or even if he was. But the period is interesting for another phenomena: the birth of England. To quote Winston Churchill from History of the English-Speaking Peoples,

"A red sunset; a long night; a pale, misty dawn! But as the light grows it becomes apparent to remote posterity that everything has changed. Night had fallen on Britannia. Dawn rose on England, poor, humble, barbareous, degraded and divided, but alive."

Which is why we peer back through the mists of time at those Germanic names, trying to make sense of what happened during that long twilight, night, then dawn between the departure of the legions and the reign of Alfred of Wessex.

Names are almost all we have. Names of kings; names of clerics, seldom names of the common folk on whose back fell the struggle itself.

And occasionally, just when it would be most helpful, we don't even have the names. For example, a cleric we call Gildas wrote a rant against the lack of virtue of five then-current Briton kings sometime in the sixth century. But in paragraph 26 of that wandering document, he refers to "until the siege of Bath-hill ("Badonius Mons"), when took place also the last almost, though not the least slaughter of our cruel foes." What victory was Gildas refering to? Some suggest Badonius Mons refers to the legendary Arthur's great victory. If so why didn't Gildas name the victorious general? I don't know. It is tantalizing, but nowhere near definitive.

[Ron Andrea]

Speaking of tantalizing details, I promised one from the Notitia Dignitatum. Here it is:

Written about 250 years after the reported presence of Sarmatian cavalry among the Roman forces in Britannia, the list of units reports a cuneus veteranorum Sarmatorum, commonly translated "troop of Sarmatian veterans", at Bremetennacum (now Ribchester in Lancashire).

It would seem impossible that the descendants of retired soldiers would maintain their cultural heritage so well that over 200 years later an official document of the empire still identifies them as Sarmatian, but if not that, then what or who were the cuneus veteranorum Sarmatorum?

Much of the pro-Sarmatian position has been hashed out by Littleton and Thomas in The Sarmatian Connection (1978) and Helmut Nickel's works The Dawn of Cavalry and Wer waren Konig Artus' Ritter? Littleton and Malcor's more recent From Scythia to Camelot adds little to the scholarship. Our own Robert Vermaat has ably descried the negative position on this site.

As the opening of this topic suggests, there is much in a name. Unfortunately, we have more myth and rumor than facts on this issue. And when we do have a fact, like the above quote, we can't agree what it means.