Germanic names

[Alanus]

Thanks.

I'll check out Robert's web pages.

I guess Cerdic has been portrayed in every conceivable manner. When he runs around as Stellan Skarsgaard, he's a mean dude. ("Kill them all, every man, woman, and child.") I think Ashe had more to say about him in "Discovery." As I recall, in his last few pages-- what he called a "Fancy"-- Ash had Arthur marrying Cerdic's daughter. Not too probable. :lol:

Alanus, A.J. Campbell

[authun]

He (Cerdic) is a great example of our Germanic Names puzzle.

I'm always suspicious of the way names were recorded. The early scribes were largely British clerics and they taught the later germanic scribes. Also, there are some howlers. Barbara Yorke urges caution:

"Thus the Chronicle describes a victory in 508 by Cerdic and Cynric over a British king called Natanleod after whom, it is said, the district of Natanleage was named. In fact the name of this rather marshy area of Hamphire derives from the OW word naet, meaning wet and it would appear that the name of a completely ficticious king has been taken from the place rather than the other way around."

Cerdic may even be a transposition error, Cedric. It's a puzzle which will never be solved.

best
Harry A

[Alanus]

There are a number of locations in England and Wales named after dubius historical personages. And then it's versa-vica. :lol: Robert mentioned a couple connected to the Wall (evidently by using hydrolic cement), and then in Wales we have Brycon named after a town, or maybe it's vasa-viza. And you may be right about Cedric. I've done exactly that while writing something. "Oops! I wrote Cerdic. Oh, well. I'll just leave it that way. I forgot my scraping knife... and where is that shaker of sand, anyway?"

These scribal types lived one step beyond reality. (Evidently right next to me.) And they were not versed in history, even though copying it... or making it up as they went along. The worst, by far, were the Pedigree Doctors between the 12th and 15th centuries. They really managed to screw things up. Between Roman scribes, then British ones, then Saxon ones, then Norman ones, we have a "marginal" chance for error. Look at any translation of major works like Pliny, and you discover our modern academics choosing to translate "the Badenburden manuscript" over the "Vatican ms A" because it has less errors.

What I want to know-- and will never find out-- "How many errors was that, anyway?" :wink:

And there's another problem. These "historical" characters were recorded by two or three, even four, different names. The person known as Riothamus is also John Lex (Lex Luther's brother, the cousin of Martin Luther), also as John Rieth (or during the holidays, Christmas Rieth), and also as Emyr Llydaw... and also as Pompeius. So which one was his real name?

The answer is (envelope ripping)-- "I dunno."

Keeping to Germanic names, Riothamus had a grandson named Maxentius, which is unusual and could be Germanic. Riothamus' elder son was Riwal... possibly Riwald (the big furry German who was garroted by the 97-lb Guinevere in the flick)... and his youngest son was Daniel, a good Biblical name for a guy who became "King of the Alammani." His great grandson was Theodoric II. What we are seeing again, is a Romano-Brit family with a German who slipped through the back door.

Keep well,

Alanus, A.J. Campbell

[authun]

.. do you have a source for Germanic names? Marcomanni, Suebi, Cimbri, or Teuton type preferred, though there must surely be some crossover, as their languages were somewhat similar, compared to Gaulic names and language.

I came across this list of Frisian names on the SCA web site. They are taken from documents in an abbey dated around 900 AD and are rent payers etc. A little later than you were asking for but, as the name Boio is included, some of them will have been around for quite some time. Infact, you'll recognise a lot:

http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/frisianmasc.html

best

[Grimhild]

This is rather off the current point, I'm afraid, but I'm just tidying up an Arminius novel that for obvious reasons needs finishing by the end of the year before the rush starts...
In the circumstances this maes a very rudimentary problem: what's the significance of the third syllable of the Roman form 'Arminius'? Even Foestermann's Personnennamen and Kaufmann's supplement to it baulk at discussing this, though both spend ages reaching different conclusions over the fourth syllable of 'Maroboduus' - roughly, that since Rome usually latinized funny foreign names by adding -us, double endings like these must indicate that the original German names ended in weak syllables. Kaufmann certainly decides that the correct form of the name element 'irmin' that most people agree has a fair chance of underlying 'Arminius' somehow is really 'ermana', which would make the masc. name 'Armino' or thereabouts. But I seem to be alone in applying this to the rebel-leader of 9 AD. Have any of you knowledgeable lot got any sensible suggestions, please? hock:

[Ron Andrea]

Beats me. :?

[Alanus]

Grimhild,

I always thought Arminius was a fairly straight-forward name. Just drop the "i" along with the "us." Here is an example:

Fraomarius = Fraomar
Arminius = Armin

As far as I know, it was similar to Erman, and the modern name is Hermann. (No too romantic a name for the protagonist in a novel.)
Did this Arminius character know Veleda, the lovely and talented seeress who lived in the tower? Or was that another German hero?

A strange thing about Veleda-- and Germanic names. I have implied, more than implied, that Celtic and German societies which lived proximate to one another for periods of several generations will borrow from each other's language. And Veleda is the perfect example. She is Veleda in German. And she is a "veleda" in Linguae Gallicae-- P Celtic. But what do old farts know?

They can't remember their ex-wive's names. :lol:

Best of luck in the novel game. Tried that three times, but never searched for a publisher.

Alanus, aka A.J. Campbell, "Siberia," Maine

[Ron Andrea]

Writing a "serious" historical novel in this late Roman and early sub-Roman period--and trying to get things right--is frustrating at best. They weren't called the Dark Ages for nothing. Very few records, and most of them unreliable (for all the reasons discussed above).

But . . . but if you're just writing a fantasy--like Conan the Cimmerian--and want to give it a pseudo-historical flavor, enjoy. But please don't claim that it's really hsitoric. You can have a lost culture of Atlantis or you can have history, but apparently not both. :roll:

I say apparently because the oddest things come to light these days. I'm not holding my breath on Atlantis, other than Thera, despite it's "documentation" by Plato and everyone since. :wink:

[Alanus]

Ron,

You got that right! Terry Gilliam once called the era, "Darker than anyone expected." Not much to go on. :lol:

Atlantis! We should ask Captain Nemo to find it for us. As far as I know-- and it even exceeds Thera-- there is a lost underwater city but it's in the wrong place-- Kyrgsthan (or however you spell it). It was called Chen-Gu by the Chinese; and the Russian Geographer Peter Tienshansky searched for it in vain. In the 1950s, clues showed up along the shore of Issyk Kul; and in 2007, a dive team found it. The city lies completly underwater in the lake. The culture was Saka-Sogdian, and I equate this "underwater palace" with the birth of the Lady of the Lake legend.

I hopefully suppose one can write a migration-era "novel" and infuse it with goofy scenarios like the above. In my most recent tale, the one I'm going to try and publish, the animus of the Lady of the Lake finally transmigrates to a female protagonist in the 350s. Her mentor is Merjands, basically a "sleeper" who hibernates for extended periods and then shows up again, aka Merlin. Some of this novel stuff has to be off the wall or the reader loses the entertainment factor, and the author has lost the reader. A good example would be the Mists of Avalon, strange metaphysical stuff filling in the lack of historical evidence. In my story's case, the Saka/Alans did believe in transmigration of the soul; and so I can have a woman return after an 800 year absence. It's not history, but it's human nature. At the same time, the plot follows historical events, the Gothic purge of the Christian Arians that either hid in Transylvania or crossed the Danube under the blessing of Emperor Constantius.

I always thought Veleda would be a good character for a Germanic-based plot. Tacitus gives us little on her, but hey!-- she could have been beautiful, probably was intelligent, and perhaps built like Marilyn, or was it Marlon, or maybe Marlin, the piscatorial obsession of Hemingway. 8)

pasta love vista, and verse visa,
A.J. Campbell

[Robert Vermaat]

Arminius = Armin
As far as I know, it was similar to Erman, and the modern name is Hermann.

Well actually, Armin is also the modern version, or still is, I suppose. Hermann seems to be from a different name. But it's often popularized as Hermann.

[Alanus]

Thanks for the pointer.

Still, Hermann or Herman is not a great name for a hero in a novel... although better than Ermine or Hermyni. Actually the old-still Armin sounds "strong" enough :lol:

Alan J. Campbell, freezing in Maine