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Making Pteruges (or at least trying to make Pteruges!)
:oops:
Ah, now i know what you mean :lol: It`s the top of the Hasta from one of my Soldiers behind him!
Marcus Iulius Chattus
_______________________
Marcus-Gerd Hock

Me that ave been what i´ve been-
Me that ave gone where i´ve gone-
Me that ave seen what i´ve seen-
...Me!
(Rudyard Kipling)
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Quote::oops:
Ah, now i know what you mean :lol: It`s the top of the Hasta from one of my Soldiers behind him!


Big Grin
Mike Carroll.
LEGIIAVG

Dying aint much of a living.
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Quote:I made my tribune's subarmalis last year, and initially had these same problems. After fooling around with scraps for a bit, I found the following method to work best (i.e., look most like the monuments). In this case, I made leather pteruges, trimmed in wire bullion fringe.

I cut a fan-shaped pattern in which I then cut into seperate pteruges, each one narrowing slightly towards the top. I left the top intact. The size of each pteruge? About one inch or so, but basically what I thought looked about right on my arm, keeping in mind that all arms are different, so one shouldn't get too hung up on the width/length... so long as it looks close to what's seen on the monuments. I ended up with about 17 pteruges, but again, this will change depending on the amount of arm that needs to be covered. I also decided not to add any at the armpit, for comfort's sake.
Hi Gil, Whats the gold trim around the edges????

I then cut pie-shapes out across the top, and sewed them together with awl thread, which, when done, formed a sort of bowl shape into which the shoulder would go. I kept this sewn area shallow enough that it would be covered by the shoulder trim of my subarmalis.

I then cut a second pattern, identical to the first, minus one pteruge. I initially tried gluing this to the back of the first fan in an overlapping manner, but this created a mass of leather that would not drape properly. So I cut apart the individual pteruges of the second fan, and glued them in seprately to fill the gaps of the first fan. Added a few decorative rivets, and sewed the mess to the inside of my sub shoulder seam. The result was quite comfortable, drapes like the monuments, and has IMO the right amount of "fullness". This method would, I think, work well with your felt/linen pteruges as well. Hope this helps,

Gil Whitley / Tribune Valerius, Leg X Fret So Cal


[Image: sleevepteruges2.jpg]
[Image: sleevepteruges3.jpg]
[Image: sleevepteruges5.jpg]
Mike Carroll.
LEGIIAVG

Dying aint much of a living.
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Quote:What i am getting at is that Most modern centurions choose leather over material. I personally find leather pleasing to the eye. I am sure in the real roman world personal choice accounted a lot for what type of material was used for whatever as well as money as it does nowadays

Spoken like a man of the 21st c. My question still stands:Why would a Roman have used leather? Consider:

First he would have had to kill a cow. But then, how plentiful were cows? Rome was not a cattle culture, but a sheep and goat culture.

Once he had the hide, he had to tan it to soften it. Then he had the pleasing stuff you are referring to.

Then to use it as armor, he had to find a way to stiffen and harden it; but he just removed its hardness when he tanned it. This goes no where. A Roman wouldn't have bothered, especially when he had other material available that was lighter, more comfortable and better defensively than softened leather: like felt or linen.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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Bloomin' 'eck. Just popped in here out of nosiness.
You guys play rough (see a few pages earlier).
I think that if ever I get to the stage of making pteruges, it be out of old car parts, just for the protection!!!
Tosses hand grenade into room and awaits response.....
Lochinvar/Ewan Carmichael
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Quote:... Why would a Roman have used leather? Consider:

First he would have had to kill a cow. But then, how plentiful were cows? Rome was not a cattle culture, but a sheep and goat culture.

Once he had the hide, he had to tan it to soften it. Then he had the pleasing stuff you are referring to.

Then to use it as armor, he had to find a way to stiffen and harden it; but he just removed its hardness when he tanned it. This goes no where. A Roman wouldn't have bothered, especially when he had other material available that was lighter, more comfortable and better defensively than softened leather: like felt or linen.

To carry your logic forwards ...

To make just 1 square foot of linen cloth (at 80 threads per inch, fairly low) would require 320 yards of linen thread.

This is grown in fields (that would otherwise be producing food crops, good flax for thread is not good flax for food), this needs to be retted to extract the useful fibres (requiring water, pits and taking time).

The fibres then need to be further processed, sorted, combed and spun (using a drop spindle you would be doing well to spin a yard a minute, no idea how long prep would take but it's not a trivial activity (i have spun both wool and flax, a long staple wool is easier and kinder on the hands by far, i'm baisng my timing on people who have been spinning for years, not me)).

Once your thread is produced the relatively easy weaving happens.

Doc i'm sure could actually quote chapter and verse on the production times required.

What linen is superb for is making a primary defense (of many layers) in a labor rich culture (the jack and linothorax were both primary defenses). As a facing fabric for stuffed under-armour padding decent leather wears well and has the advantage of being somewhat weather (rain) resistant.

If i might ask, what are we basing he idea of Pteryges as a form of defence on, i'm not challenging the idea , but trying to work out if this is a supposition or supported by period references (under-armour padding in general being one of my pet subjects)

N.
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Quote:First he would have had to kill a cow. But then, how plentiful were cows? Rome was not a cattle culture, but a sheep and goat culture. .

No. That is not true.
While the mediterranean/eastern parts of the empire _might_ have been using goat as one of it's staple meat products the European part of the empire is ia cattle based culture. Do you need some bone analysis from some British Roman or Gallic sites (I have some british data)?
Beef is actually cheaper to buy, when comparing prices in diocletians later edict, which argues for either a lesser status product or a more pentiful supply.

Quote:Once he had the hide, he had to tan it to soften it. Then he had the pleasing stuff you are referring to.

Then to use it as armor, he had to find a way to stiffen and harden it; but he just removed its hardness when he tanned it. This goes no where. A Roman wouldn't have bothered, especially when he had other material available that was lighter, more comfortable and better defensively than softened leather: like felt or linen


As Nathan so correctly points out, the process of cloth manufacture is far more involved than that of leather (or animal hide in general). Leather is a by product of the animal, the same as it's bone.

The folks up at Vindolanda are using leather for shoes, straps, saddle covers and also for horse armour (chamfrons) **. Why did they choose leather for horse armour ? For the same reason that they Romans _may_ have chosen it for pteruges: availability, flexibility, decorative and protective value.

BTW hardened leather is about as useful as laminated linen in the context of ptergues; both are too stiff to allow unhindered arm movement.

** Vindolanda - early roman forts vol III - carol van driel Murray etc 1993
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[size=150:1nectqej]John Nash[/size]
http://www.vicus.org.uk
Romans and Britons wot fight ........
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