Spartan Counterpeltast Warfare

[Paullus Scipio]

Celtic mercenaries in Sparta? Any references?

........with, pleasure, Stefanos. Xenophon'History of my Times' at 7.1.20 (this occurs after Leuctra, when Lacedaemonia is invaded by the Thebans,Arcadians and their allies in 370-367 B.C,)

" Just after these events had happened, the expedition sent by Dionysius ( of Syracuse) to aid the Lacedaemonians sailed in, numbering more than twenty triremes. And they brought Celts, Iberians, and about fifty horsemen. On the following day the Thebans and the rest, their allies, after forming themselves in detached bodies and filling the plain as far as the sea and as far as the hills adjoining the city, destroyed whatever of value there was in the plain. And the horsemen of the Athenians and of the Corinthians did not approach very near their army, seeing that the enemy were strong and numerous. [21] But the horsemen sent by Dionysius, few though they were, scattering themselves here and there, would ride along the enemy's line, charge upon them and throw javelins at them, and when the enemy began to move forth against them, would retreat, and then turn round and throw their javelins ......"

...and again at 7.1.32 " And when Archidamus led the advance, only a few of the enemy waited till his men came within spear-thrust; these were killed, and the rest were cut down as they fled, many by the horsemen and many by the Celts. [32] Then as soon as the battle had ended and he had set up a trophy, he immediately sent home Demoteles, the herald, to report the greatness of his victory and the fact that not so much as one of the Lacedaemonians had been slain, while vast numbers of the enemy had fallen. And when the people at Sparta heard this, it is said that all of them wept, beginning with Agesilaus, the senators, and the ephors; so true it is, indeed, that tears belong to joy and sorrow alike. On the other hand, both the Thebans and the Eleans were almost as well pleased as the Lacedaemonians at the misfortune of the Arcadians -- so vexed had they become by this time at their presumption. "

I think, from memory, that there is a further reference to Celts serving in Agesilaus' army, possibly also sent by Dionysius, but I can't recall exactly where.........

[PMBardunias]

And they brought Celts, Iberians, and about fifty horsemen.

Where do you think the Celts in question came from? Were they Iberian Celts or from Marsailles and southern Gaul? I've seen that passage interpreted to mean that the 50 horsemen were Kelts, but I don't agree.

[PMBardunias]

The fact that hoplites chased Peltast does not mean that they ever reached them!

I'll bet it worked the first time!

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul Bardunias wrote

Where do you think the Celts in question came from? Were they Iberian Celts or from Marsailles and southern Gaul? I've seen that passage interpreted to mean that the 50 horsemen were Kelts, but I don't agree.

....I guess Dionysius could have hired them from anywhere. He is at the height of his power, having 'seen off' the Carthaginians. They may have come from Spain ( but the Celt-Iberians didn't inhabit the coast), or Southern Gaul, or even Northern Italy - it is only 20 years or so since Brennus sacked Rome, and they are cosolidating in the Po valley.Dionysius planted a colony at Hadria in the Adriatic in 386 B.C.
I don't think the cavalry are Celts, or we would be told so. From their methods, they sound like quintessential Tarentine cavalry to me.......

[spartacus-033]

And don't forget that the youngest would also not be the wealthiest, hence few perhaps would be encumbered by body armour

I was under the impression that spartans weren't allowed to have money and always assumed that the weapons and aromor were supplied by the state

[PMBardunias]

I was under the impression that spartans weren't allowed to have money

Don't fall for the mirage of a Spartan commune. What they used to do was mortgage their kleroi, land allotments. What you ended up with was a limited citizenry who de facto owned all the land (many of them women). This more than any other factor is what destroyed Sparta.

[geala]

I told you my opinion that ekdromoi were not very successful and I stick to this.

There were successful deployments however. For example when Agesilaos invaded Akarnania together with the Achaians. They were harrassed in their camp by Akarnanians with missiles. Agesilaos moved the camp and marched away the next day. In a small pass they were attacked by the Akarnanian peltasts. The ekdromoi and even the horsemen sent after them could not catch the peltasts because of the problematic landscape. Later, on a more shallow steep, the 15 youngest age-groups again attacked as ekdromoi together with the cavalry, some attackers were killed, the rest ran back to the Akarnanian hoplites, who fled bevor the final clash with the main Spartan phalanx (Xenophon, Hellenika IV 6). It is not said wether the fleeing peltasts were killed by the ekdromoi or the cavalry, the latter is more probable.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This more than any other factor is what destroyed Sparta.

Yes,but this is also what made Sparta what it was,for some 3 centuries...