Spartan Counterpeltast Warfare

[Strategos]

Hi All!
In Hans Delbrück´s Book "History of the Art of War Vol. I -Persian Wars to Cesar- ", the author mentioned, that the Lacedaimonians drilled their youngest Hoplites on hunting Peltasts to neutralize the danger of being routed by Skirmishers (I believe he quoted Xenophon).
My question is now: is there any proof of special shield devices or some kind of a symbol for these men? Or were these Soldiers taken from the Elite of Spartas Army?
Did they use Javelins?
The only picture I found is here:Skirmishing the Thracians
But those men aren´t Spartans...........

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

If I recall it was simply the youngest age classes that were sent. These were not a seperate unit in the sense you seek, but dispersed among the veterans and organized in the same manner.

[Strategos]

So they were just a troop in one age separated from other older ages but hoplites as usual? OK, thanks for your reply, that's exactly what I wanted to know!
But I have still the question: Javelins or Thrusting spear?
Ithink Javelins, because a Thrusting spear would be too expensive, but on the other Hand isn't´t it difficult to carry them while using an Aspis?

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

But I have still the question: Javelins or Thrusting spear?

I think you're supposing this is more complexly organized than it was. The men who chased were identical to the rest of the Spartan force- hoplites with Aspis and Spear. It was literally like the general just telling the youngest, fastest men to go chase the troublesome peltasts away.

[JP Vieira]

Hello
This is a very interesting subject.
Paul, so there was no chance in equipment: in arms and armour?
Best regards
JP Vieira

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

There wasn't,and in fact it was easy each time to separate the youngest of the men,as the spartan army was called by age classes.This means that if in one campaign there were called men between 30-40 years old,it would be those 30 years old that would persuit the enemy light troops.Simpler than having a separate unit that had to be present in every single battle,as Paul said.
Khairete
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

If you are in the ranks from 18 til 60 years you can be trained to do a lot of things.
There was also the specialised mora of Skiritis.
And ofcource mercenaries by the end of the Peloponessian war.

Kind regards

[geala]

The best thing we can say about Spartan counter-peltast war is in my opinion that it worked not exactly the way the Spartans wished to be.

Do you really believe that the ekdromoi (can I name them like that?) wore the normal armour, esp. linen/leather/bronze thorax (weighting about 4 to 5 kg) and greaves (not heavy but not so nice for running)?

That would explain the failure of the ekdromos concept but can we blame the Spartans or the other users to be so foolish? That they not even tried to make the task a bit more easy for the young runners? To run with a 6 kg aspis seems to be difficult enough already.

[Paullus Scipio]

One should remember this was just the initial 'emergency' response to encountering peltasts. And don't forget that the youngest would also not be the wealthiest, hence few perhaps would be encumbered by body armour - but chasing a man with a pelte while carrying an aspis was certainly a handicap !
The Spartans very quickly began hiring mercenary peltasts of their own, and even, in Xenophon's time, Celtic mercenaries IIRC.

[hoplite14gr]

From personal experience I assure you that reconstructed linothorax is quite heavy and hoplitodromy wearing it was no joke.
Heavy infantry cannot do skirmishing easily at least for a long time.
From personal experience I did not have problem running arround with only helmet, shield and spear but no armor. (we use quite heavy shileds mind you)

Spartans had the Mora of Skiritis for use as light troops and "commando staff" and the length of their hoplite service allowed them training in various skills.

Celtic mercenaries in Sparta? Any references?

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The fact that hoplites chased Peltast does not mean that they ever reached them!If you have a phalanx,even only two ranks of it,running behind you,you won't stop to target with bow,sling or more so with javelin.It assures these troops would stay off combat,even if not extinguished.Remember that after the two phalanxes clashed,missiles were useless in that mess,with the danger of hitting friendly troops.The ekdromoi were supposed to be lighter armed,but I don't know if Spartans purposly armed lighter their younger troops.Seems unlikely.
Remember hoplitodromy:Helmet,shield and greaves.This has something to tell.
Khairete
Giannis

[Strategos]

OK, to sum up: The Spartans tried to use their Younger Hoplites against Peltasts, but it did not function the way they wanted.
So at the end, this strategy (if it was one) based on Psychology, not on the advantage in close combat.
And they were no special unit, now I start to see clear..........

[hoplite14gr]

No Willi, break it at time periods

Archaic-Mid Cclassical : light infantry service is done by Skiritans or Allies

Mid classical to Late classical: Ekdromoi ans mercenaries. Skiritans were taken way from Sparta by Epameinondas

Late classical to Hellenistic: Mercenaries-probably Thyreophoroi

Kind regards

[Strategos]

Oh, then Delbrück´s Interpretation of Xenophon is a bit unclear I think, because he explicit said that those young soldiers did this. He did not mention
the lacedaimonian light infantry.
Thanks for the correction, it really helps!
Please excuse all my stupid questions, I´m just beginning .

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

No stupid questions at all.There are stupid answers,but not in this case
Actually,in every new member's primary question,usually a whole heated discussion starts by old members,so I some times think that the new members must have been completely confused :lol: