Questions on the Lorica Hamata

[Paullus Scipio]

Thx Jim, interesting read that is. Especially the mystic ''Alba lulia'' type. I wonder what discoveries they will make in the next 20 years ?

....with all due respect to Mike Bishop, whose work I greatly admire, I think he is mistaken on this occasion and that the "Alba Iulia" type did not really exist, and he has simply mis-interpreted the sculpture in question....

[Caius Fabius]

Well, I recently went to the Stuttgart Landes Museum looking for the segmentata there, but they did not have it on display nor did any of the staff, including the guy in charge of the weapons and armor room have any idea what I was talking about. They had some later period maille, but obviously I was unable to measure it. It was about 18 gauge wire and the interior diameters was about 7mm. There were better displays of maille in Lithuania, but again, no Roman maille. (Roman brooches and coins, though).

Now I find the proper link was probably actually to a museum in Wurttemburg not Stuttgart.

What about the hybrid form shown on the cavalry tombstone at Arlon, Lux? Is that considered to be segmentata, since it seems to have segmented shoulder strips? Or is it hamata since it is probably representing something that is mostly maille?

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

Trying to remember....1kg is approx 2.5lbs? (we are still backwards here in the states when it comes to weights and measures it seems :wink: )

So if thats the case then somewhere between 20-30lbs as a guess...Looks like I'd need to pay attention to the gauge as well as the ring diameter. Thanks again!

2.2 pounds per kilogram, as I recall.

I've read that riveted mail weighs less, usually. Is this true? I have a butted hamata that weighs 17 pounds. Pretty light as armor goes, it seems. I've also read that butted isn't exactly period, but I wonder. How strict would all the subcontractors have been in their production methods, if not held to one in particular?

I hope to get my hands on a riveted and punched set one day, but the Almighty Dollar dictates that it won't be soon

[Marcus Julius]

I've read that riveted mail weighs less, usually. Is this true?

In a sense, yes. This has more to do with modern reproductions, really. most butted mail is maid with heavier gauge wire, simply because you need the strength to keep that link closed. When the link is rivetted closed, you don't need the resiliency of a heavier gauge wire since it is held together by the rivet.

Unfortunately, fantasy and LARP type games have had a big part in leading to this trend. I used to participate in one that gave you so many armor points for mail (with minimum standards of wire gauge and ID of the links). Then you would get +1 for solid/rivetted links.
Rules systems such as this make it appear as if butted was the norm, and solid/rivetted links were some kind of luxury upgrade.

Butted is tolerated in most re-enactment communities for two reasons: Price difference, and the fact that the fantasy/stage has provided us with such a large quantity of the butted stuff (which is likely also a part of the reason for it's cost).

[Tarbicus]

How strict would all the subcontractors have been in their production methods, if not held to one in particular?

A letter written by a lanciarius shows that there were specifications, at least for swords in the Imperial period. In the letter he literally reports that the newly delivered swords "are not up to specification".

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

Thanks, Jim! I thought there might have been but I wasn't sure.

[Tarbicus]

Righto. My source is;
'The missing lances, or Making the machine work'
in A. Goldsworthy & I.Haynes (eds.), The Roman Army as a Community, JRA supp. ser. no. 34 (1999), 127-38