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+--- Thread: Questions on the Lorica Hamata (/showthread.php?tid=10476)
Questions on the Lorica Hamata - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 09-15-2007
Firstly, is that even the correct name for the chain mail used by the romans?
The main question however is, what is meant by the ''authentic'' method of alternate butted and punched rings? I see few retailors selling a shirt in this kind, and most of the times this is the most expensive option.
Also, I see the 8mm ID, 6mm ID, and so forth. What exactly does this mean? Is it the diameter of the rings themselves? And I have been told that the romans may have used as small as 4mm ID, but how come there seems to be none of these for sale anywhere?
Sorry for all the questions, but im still fairly new at all this.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Dan Howard - 09-15-2007
Butted and punched rings is not authentic. Every time a piece of Roman mail is analysed using x-rays it turns out to be riveted and punched.
8mm ID means that the inside diameter of each link is 8mm. You can buy 4mm ID mail so long as you are prepared to pay many thousands of dollars for it.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - arklore70 - 09-15-2007
Yuri
If you are in the market to purchase a lorica Hamata Adrian Wink may be the closet dealer to you.
http://www.armamentaria.com/
Find-It in teh United States as well as other venders now also offer 6mm and 8mm ID Roman pattern shirts.
http://legvi.tripod.com/cohorsiitalica/index.html
The last link has a page that goes more in depth into Roman Mail and what to look out for in general when purchasing mail.
Hope this helps you out a bit.
V/r
Mike
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Peroni - 09-16-2007
Quote:If you are in the market to purchase a lorica Hamata Adrian Wink may be the closet dealer to you.
http://www.armamentaria.com/
Thanks Mike! I'd like to think that I was never in the 'closet'! :lol:
Yuri, I am also getting some 5mm ID (internal Diameter) 'butted' link mail shirts in shortly at a much reduced price than the 6mm riveted/punched mail. I will email you when we get some. :wink: We're talking less than £300.00
As Dan stated above, it is less authentic, but your student budget may stretch to it! It's also acceptable within the RMRS.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - arklore70 - 09-16-2007
Adrian,
oh man I just caught that. :oops: I will leave it as is as a reminder to never quite trust the spell checker blindly and that nothing beats a good old proof reading once or twice before posting.
Sorry about that.
Cheers!!
Mike
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Lucius Poblius - 09-16-2007
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the 4mm mail that has been found was used as a backing for scale armour, not on its own?
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Peroni - 09-17-2007
There's quite a bit of 4mm mail from the Roman period. It's quite a common size, but average I/D would appear to be 6-7mm.
Erik should be able to confirm these figures (or not!)
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Nicholas Gaukroger - 09-17-2007
Quote:Firstly, is that even the correct name for the chain mail used by the romans?
IIRC all the different "lorica X" names are relatively modern and are not used by the Romans themselves who just referred to body armour as lorica.
I may, of course, be wrong
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Tarbicus - 09-17-2007
Latin Vulgate Bible written 4th-5th Century:
Samuel Ch 17
17:4 et egressus est vir spurius de castris Philisthinorum nomine Goliath de Geth altitudinis sex cubitorum et palmo
17:5 et cassis aerea super caput eius et lorica hamata induebatur porro pondus loricae eius quinque milia siclorum aeris
17:6 et ocreas aereas habebat in cruribus et clypeus aereus tegebat umeros eius
17:7 hastile autem hastae eius erat quasi liciatorium texentium ipsum autem ferrum hastae eius sescentos siclos habebat ferri et armiger eius antecedebat eum
My latin's not good enough to make sure the two words actually go together.
Added
This website translates it as:
17:4 And there went out a man baseborn from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Geth, whose height was six cubits and a span:
17:5 And he had a helmet of brass upon his head, and he was clothed with a coat of mail with scales, and the weight of his coat of mail was five thousand sicles of brass:
17:6 And he had greaves of brass on his legs, and a buckler of brass covered his shoulders.
17:7 And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and the head of his spear weighed six hundred sicles of iron: and his armourbearer went before him.
http://www.latinvulgate.com/verse.aspx?t=0&b=9&c=17
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 09-17-2007
@ Dan:
Yes, thats what I meant, ''Rivetted and punched'', not butted. Im quite a perfeccionist when it comes to realism, so I will only settle for the best. Shame it also eats into my finances :wink:
@ Mike:
Thx Mike. Ade is the authenticity officer within the RMRS so I was already aware of Armamentaria and the mail shirts he has there. I just brought it to the forum because I already pick his brains on many things and did not want to overwhelm him
@ Ade:
Nice to hear that ade. Although, I'll probably save up and get the fully authentic one because, for £300, I might aswell pay an extra £195 pounds, saves me having to buy another shirt again in the future!
@ Nik & Jim:
Yeah, id heard that all the ''musculata, segmentata and hamata'' are possibly modern inventions. Still, we may never know. Its a good guess.
Thx for all the help guys.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Tarbicus - 09-17-2007
Quote:@ Nik & Jim:I posted a piece of the early latin Bible that has 'lorica hamata' in it. The reference to scales is perhaps a modern interpretation, but I think it proves the Romans did use "hamata" with "lorica". :?
Yeah, id heard that all the ''musculata, segmentata and hamata'' are possibly modern inventions. Still, we may never know. Its a good guess.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 09-17-2007
Quote:Bactrian:2i78365q Wrote:@ Nik & Jim:I posted a piece of the early latin Bible that has 'lorica hamata' in it. The reference to scales is perhaps a modern interpretation, but I think it proves the Romans did use "hamata" with "lorica". :?
Yeah, id heard that all the ''musculata, segmentata and hamata'' are possibly modern inventions. Still, we may never know. Its a good guess.
Sorry Tarbicus, I stand corrected
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Dan Howard - 09-17-2007
Virgil’s Aeneid (1st century BC) mentions armour in which rings, linked or hooked (hamis) into one another, were of gold.
Loricam consertam hamis, auroque trilicem. [III.467, V.259, VII.639]
The earliest mention of the term lorica hamata is the one cited by Jim.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Tarbicus - 09-17-2007
Quote:Sorry Tarbicus, I stand correctedNay probs, I miss bits myself :wink:
Quote:The earliest mention of the term lorica hamata is the one cited by Jim.Glad I found it again at last after saying for about a year and a half "I'm sure I've seen in it in a primary source somewhere..." :roll:
Here's the search page for the Vulgate Bible. I might use it from now on to find latin terms using english words.
http://www.latinvulgate.com/search.aspx
'Armour' seems to be mostly 'armigerus'. 'Breastplate' comes out as 'torax' and 'lorica'.
Re: Questions on the Lorica Hamata - Dan Howard - 09-17-2007
The most literal translation I can think of for the term lorica hamata would be "linked armour" or perhaps "armour of links"