Legion Ireland - Formerly Romans Ireland

[gauis alexandrois]

the combat is a great laugh and we all received injurys over that weekend.. not fun till you do, i hope to learn alot more in combat as we were not used to such contact..

best t-shirt i say down there said ( i thik along the lines of) reenacting is fun till someone gets hurt... then its fuckking brilliant

[Servius Rustius Noricus]

[the combat is a great laughquote]

That is usually the unfortunate part of it. We are having so much fun and everyone thinks it's sooooo cool.
If you train for combat that has nothing to do with the way it may have been done, then you find your self having to protect areas that would have not needed protection.
This means modifying your weapon or armour to match the circumstances.
Soon the modifications become the standard and slowly the anachronisms begin. What you eventually end up with has more in common with a Hollywood blockbuster than actual historical events.
Can you provide actual historical evidence for how the individual line soldier actually fought?

[M. Demetrius]

Well, yeah, he fought to win, no holds barred, no area wasn't fair play...

I know how some feel about it, but we here in TX like the needledfelt swords, knowing that they're not steel, knowing that they're not quite the same weight, etc, but whether other people do it or not, we like it, and that's that. The only concessions we make toward modern safety are racquetball goggles (nearly invisible from just a few meters, but they protect the eyeball) and most men wear a plastic athletic cup to protect the testicles somewhat. Yes, we know that having an eye put out is totally authentic, but we have agreed it's not desirable, and no matter how people try to be careful with each other (*our motto*) it's every time that somebody gets a shield edge or sword point in the eye. We prefer the racquetball goggles because they're engineered for impact, unlike plain industrial safety glasses, which are not.

Needledfelt swords and spears at least allow for reasonable contact without the risk of injury...so people can strike each other and not go home bruised too much, or bleeding. Lots of "rug burns", though, so I guess if we're wimps, that's how it has to be. In public battles, where there is an audience, nobody seems to mind that the wounds are acted out, and the "killing" is not for real. They don't seem to mind seeing simulated combat; in fact, they really enjoy it as long as nobody avoids playing by the rules, and no silly arguments take place. There is always a person who explains the battle rules, shows "real" weapons, and explains why we can't use sharpened steel. Like I said, we're happy with it, and we're going to keep on doing it. If that bothers anyone, well, they should just do something else. We're having fun, so -- ??

If someone else likes running the risk of being blinded for recreation, I guess that is their choice. Here in the States, though, with every seventh person a lawsuit attorney, we can't take chances with much. Sad, but true.

[Paullus Scipio]

.
"Can you provide actual historical evidence for how the individual line soldier actually fought?"- Robert[/quote]

How about this ?

"Holding their sword straight out, [c.f. Mainz and Adamklissi reliefs] they would strike their opponents in the groin, pierce their sides [i.e. stab] and drove their blows through their breasts into their vitals. And if they saw any of them keeping these parts of the body protected, they would cut the tendons of their knees or ankles [also described in gladiatorial combat] and topple them to the ground, roaring and biting their shields and uttering cries resembling the howling of wild beasts..."
:evil: :twisted:
Dionysus of Halicarnassus c.30-20 B.C. describing how legionaries dealt with Gauls in northern Italy.

[Paullus Scipio]

Makes sense to me, David ! 8)
Whenever you see re-enactors using steel etc, " reality" or any attempt at it goes out the window because of the artificial rules needed for safety purposes - and even then injuries occur - broken sword flying into the crowd, broken bones, cuts needing many stitches are just some of the things that I've seen.
Only by taking the totally safe route, can you even attempt to simulate, for example, the kind of attacks Dionysus (see above) describes. D

[Servius Rustius Noricus]

my thanks to Paullus Scipio for his input.

Another problem Demetrius is the fact that when people feel totally protected by modern day equipment i.e googles and cups, they go at it without the real fear for self preservation that would have kept both the line and the soldier in check.
Can I ask (and please do not take this as a slander or attempt to start a fight, just an honest question) how often do these clashes that you so espouse break into a total melee without regard to known tactics or line control? Are you at least attempting to show to the public the discipline that the Roman army was known for?

[M. Demetrius]

No offense taken. We do make an effort to keep the Romans in formation, and when they do that, they do well. When they spread out, the lighter armed and lighter armored enemies do well, which figures.

Those who have been to any of the Lafe, Arkansas "AD 43" battles can certainly attest to what goes on.

Yes, you are right, in part. Some may take more chances knowing they won't "really" get killed. Others of us, like myself, try to project themselves onto a real battlefield, where the brush of a blade against a forearm doesn't just render the arm incapacitated until next battle, it would lead to many stitches, and a long rehab/recovery.

Actually, that's what I was talking about when I mentioned "keeping within the rules". A sword cut or spear thrust against an unprotected arm would almost certainly result in that soldier moving to the rear for treatment, if he were fortunate enough to be able to get away.

Our biggest problem to date in portraying a "real" battle is the lack of combatants. It's hard to do much with only 8 or 10 on the field. The biggest group we've had locally was about 25 or 28, a little over half being "Celts". It would be a different matter if we actually had a couple of hundred, and could specify how the terrain would play into the battle, who would be the reserves, what the objectives were, etc. More warriors would help a lot. With only a few, it becomes a matter of individual combat more than line combat. We're hoping to make things grow, but the big question is "how??"

[Paullus Scipio]

....this where footage of riots, as posted by Tarbicus, can be of assistance in getting an idea of how masses of people in live combat situations behave( because lack of numbers, generally restricted to a dozen or so, is the norm for re-enactors ).This ( e.g. the natural reluctance to come to grips) can then be incorporated into re-enactment displays, particularly those intended to give the public a 'feel' for what ancient combat was possibly/probably like. In a 'safe'(relatively!) set-up, such as that described by Demetrius, the ferocity and reckless bravery so often described can then be simulated, leavened by the re-enactor deliberately treating the blows as "real" and reacting accordingly.
Better that Danger and Injury risk are simulated, than that the danger and injury risk are real, necessitating entirely false rules to ensure safety, and leading to the anachronisms described above.

[Tarbicus]

and topple them to the ground, roaring and biting their shields and uttering cries resembling the howling of wild beasts..."
:evil: :twisted:
Dionysus of Halicarnassus c.30-20 B.C. describing how legionaries dealt with Gauls in northern Italy.

Priceless

[M. Demetrius]

I wonder what shields taste like...paint? Wood? Sweat?

Does biting shields make one roar like a beast? Hmm.

[Ceannt]

Blood and other materal i would think :twisted:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

brass has a rather metalic after taste...... hock:

[Hibernicus]

I was hoping to be able to post the video but the only reference found was this:
<http://www.legiodraconis.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1177&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=ef6ccf1355c9c731aeb7f3f16d6158a0>

SCA vs riot police as part of a regular training regimen

The quest for the video continues.

[Nerva]

We'll we won't be killing anyone, not intentionally anyway. Yes we pick up some injuries but no more than you'd expect from a bit of bashing scuta around. At the end of the day we're re-enactors, the actor bit being the important word.

While not 'authentic' combat, it's the nearest we're going to get without actually killing someone so sorry Magnus, you'll be dissapointed. Regardless of that you'd be amazed at what you find out even from our little bit of playing around. When I've got a bit more time I'll let you know what we found out about using the scutum.