Testudo

[PMBardunias]

Ah, I should have been clear. The way he describes the fulcum being formed, the second rank lays their shields atop the first rank's, resting the bottom edge on the shield boss of the one below.

If the shields are not assymetrical, or exactly uniform, the distance between the shield boss and the top edge of the bottom shield, may be greater than the distance between the grip below the boss and the bottom edge of the top shield. This would make it impossible to hold the shield as the grip would be covered. Or worse the weight of the shield would be dangling from your wrist if you could not place the shield on the boss below.

An inch or two off and this can get real painful. One caveat is that the boss diameter could be much grater than the grip-hole diameter and this would solve the problem as well. I don't know enough about Scuttii to answer these questions.

[Tarbicus]

If the shields are not assymetrical, or exactly uniform, the distance between the shield boss and the top edge of the bottom shield, may be greater than the distance between the grip below the boss and the bottom edge of the top shield. This would make it impossible to hold the shield as the grip would be covered. Or worse the weight of the shield would be dangling from your wrist if you could not place the shield on the boss below.

An inch or two off and this can get real painful. One caveat is that the boss diameter could be much grater than the grip-hole diameter and this would solve the problem as well. I don't know enough about Scuttii to answer these questions.

If the upper shield's lower rim rests on the top of the lower shield's boss then there's no need for assymetry as long as the men are static. Could be painful on the move, though. :wink:

[PMBardunias]

How, if the upper end of the shield below covers the grip of the shield above when resting on the rim?

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

If the upper shield's lower rim rests on the top of the lower shield's boss then there's no need for assymetry as long as the men are static. Could be painful on the move, though.

How, if the upper end of the shield below covers the grip of the shield above when resting on the rim?

Ave,

Are you saying the troops would hold the shields in a more extreme overlapping fashion and not edge to edge, or slightly overlapped... as in the images below? But nearly, top edge all the way to the boss and hand?

Legion Six (by the way, that wreath incorporated into the thunderbolt & wings is kicka$$ coo! 8) )

[url:3jyxo8pu]http://www.legionsix.org/assault%20testudo,%20rear%20view.jpg[/url]

[url:3jyxo8pu]http://www.legionsix.org/conquest%20030a.jpg[/url]

[url:3jyxo8pu]http://www.legionsix.org/conquest%20031a.jpg[/url]

[url:3jyxo8pu]http://www.legionsix.org/approaching%20the%20barbs...jpg[/url]


LEG XX USA

[PMBardunias]

Yes. Scroll up to the third post and you'll see a link to a paper describing what I mention in more detail. The author describes the "Fulcum" as a formation two, or more, scutii high, one over the other resting on the boss.

My question was how can you both rest on the boss below and get your hand into the grip-hole if the top of the shield below you is longer than the bottom half of yours? I am not far into the study of Roman tactics, though well versed on the greek, so I am curious as to what people thought of the author's reconstruction. Some of the authors he sites, particularly Arrian, are also used as authorities on greek/macedonian phalanxes- neither of which could form a Fulcum with their boss-less shields.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

My question was how can you both rest on the boss below and get your hand into the grip-hole if the top of the shield below you is longer than the bottom half of yours?

Okay, this is just a hypothesis but, could the “bossâ€

[PMBardunias]

I think you are over analyzing. For the technique to work the shield rim must rest on the projection of the boss over the fist. So its not just a semantic problem.

So the choices are:

A: Shields are so uniform that the top length of one is almost identical to the bottom length of another.

B: All are Assymetrical, top shorter than bottom.

C: I am interpreting something incorrectly

D: Only some troops, whose shields meet the above criteria, could form this way.

[Crispvs]

I think you may be forgetting that the boss will always be wider than the hand within it, as it has to accomodate it. This would mean that if the lower edge of the shield was rested on the boss of the other shield, the position of the upper shield would be such that the hand would probably be resting on the upper edge of the bottom shield, rather than being squeezed by it. This would probably make it more stable than simply trying to rest one shield on the boss of another. What could be being referred to is the way the formation looked rather than the way it actually worked.

Crispvs

[PMBardunias]

Thanks, this is exactly the type of feedback I am looking for. I asked above someplace about the relative diameter of the outer boss and the inner hole for the grip. Do you know if it was usually wider, if so how much? I don't think resting the whole weight of the scutum on the wrist would be practical, but then I have never tried it.

[Salvianus]

Our shields are symmetrical and well matched for size, so if rested directly on the boss of another you have quite a bit of clearance below the hand grip (the radius of the lower boss minus the radius of your hand grip). However, this structure tends to form instead:

Testudo

looking from the inside like:

Inside Testudo

These are 'unroofed' formations suitable for shallow files against frontal attack in the field rather than the 'roofed' and deep seige formation pictured on Trajan's Column. Note that this is easier with flat shields than with dished. You do still have to watch your thumb doesn't get squashed moving into these formations as in the real world shields slip.

I hope that is useful.

[M. Demetrius]

http://www.legionsix.org/Ft%20Mac%2003%20testudo.jpg

for another Leg VI picture. It's not really necessary to have the scuta be as overlapping as that picture, and it is not at all necessary to have the shield be a different width at the bottom and top. Celt warriors used an identical shield overhead system, possibly borrowing it from Romans, or possibly it was the other way around. I don't know, but flat shields, curved shields, and a mixture of both can accomplish the same function when attacked by missiles. There will always be small gaps here and there, and the guys in the middle just have to keep up with the guys beside and in front of them. They otherwise have nearly no idea what's going on on the outside of the formation.

We've done it with a few, when the crowd was pelting us with beanbags, and it gets pretty noisy, but it's a good way to keep the troops protected. We had both kinds of shields, and it worked fine....

[Matthew]

As I recall, Polybius talks about the Testudo and describes it as 'Roof Tiles', so I would assume they overlapped, as far as he was concerned.

[Edit]
Ah here, a fragment recovered from Livy: Polybius Book 28

Matthew James Stanham

[Marcus Mummius]

I don't think resting the whole weight of the scutum on the wrist would be practical, but then I have never tried it.

Often you rest your shield on top of the head of the person standing in front of you, and he does the same with the person in front of him...

[M. Demetrius]

I don't think I'd want a shield resting on my (helmeted) head, if rocks were being thrown from above...The impact would be transferred directly to the helmet. Ow. When we did our miniature version, we rested shield to shield, but it didn't take long for our untrained arms to get tired. I'm sure a legionary soldier had stronger triceps than I, so maybe it was easier for them, and if it is something that protects from death, I think it would get easier on account of that, too. But we didn't overlap them so far that the upper shield edge rested on the boss, maybe we were doing it wrong?

[Marcus Mummius]

Yeah I don't know, I haven't been tossed on withrocks while in testudo. If formed the testudo with Gemina and with the Römercohorte Opladen. They did it very similar. Only one of these times I wore a crest and this was not good fun in a testudo :lol: Luckily I was in the last row so there was noone behind me. You can imagine that with a crested helmet you have to hold the shield very high up.

The shields on the heads make it very stable though...

Vale,