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+--- Thread: Testudo (/showthread.php?tid=10122)
Testudo - Marcus Mummius - 08-07-2007
Salvete,
I'm wondering for some time now about the use of the testudo fromation.
What are the original sources for this formation? Was it used often? For what purpose? Only when storming a fortification? Or also on the battlefield?
In another thread Tarbicus mentioned that the legionarries of Crassus didn't adapt the testudo formation while being slowly shot down by the Parthians. This sounds very interesting. Perhaps they did adopt some other kind of defensive formation (just crouch behind their shields?). Perhaps the scutum used in these times wasn't suitable for a testudo formation?
Your opinions?
Valete,
Fulcum - PMBardunias - 08-07-2007
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think this is related. Has anyone read this paper? "The Fulcum, the late Roman and Byzantine testudo: the Germanization of Roman infantry tactics?" by Philip Rance.
If anyone wants a copy, email me. I am not well versed in roman, especially late roman tactics, but I need opinions on Rance's thesis as it has implications for Arrian's opinion of the Macedonian phalanx.
Re: Rance\'s Fulcum - D B Campbell - 08-07-2007
Quote:If anyone wants a copy ...It's freely available on-line here (scroll down -- vol. 44 no.3).
Re: Rance\'s Fulcum - Tarbicus - 08-07-2007
Quote:It's freely available on-line here (scroll down -- vol. 44 no.3).Laudes. Ta, Duncan.
Re: Testudo - Alexandr K - 08-07-2007
Hi,
Cassius Dio writes about testudo in detail:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... 9*.html#30
Greetings
alexandr
Re: Testudo - Felix - 08-07-2007
Thank you for the reference, Alexandr. When Cassius Dio distinguishes between those with curved shields and flat shields, who do you think he is talking about with flat shields?
Re: Testudo - Alexandr K - 08-07-2007
Hi Felix,
you're welcome.
Well, those flat shields... hard to say, but since the baggage train, cavalry and light infantry are in the centre of the formation, then perhaps the light-armed troops could be those with flat shields. On the other hand light infantry weren't Romans and permanent part of the Roman army at the time Dio is describing in this part of his work (campaign of Marcus Antonius), and they weren't trained in the Roman manner...
Who knows what had Cassius Dio in his mind when writing this.
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Testudo - Tarbicus - 08-07-2007
It's definitely light-armed troops in the centre, so they're the ones with the flat shields. Even the heavily armed troops seem to have three different types of shield, which brings up the subject of applying too much uniformity within a legion. There isa theory that within a legion even a whole cohort could be specialised and have different equipment to others. Add the long and unfinished discussion about antesignanii/lanciarii/etcii, and this thread could run for a few months at least.
I'd also suggest that Dio groups the cavalry in with the flat shield crowd, which would fulfill our expectations.
Lacus Curtius texts - D B Campbell - 08-08-2007
Quote:[url:128trhga]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/49*.html#30[/url]Forgive the deviation from testudines, but: Has anybody discovered how to make a functioning link to Bill's translation pages?! :?
Re: Testudo - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-08-2007
nope!
Re: Lacus Curtius texts - Tarbicus - 08-08-2007
Quote:I think it's the * that blocks hot linking. You need to copy and paste the whole link.Alexandr K:1mb04ok2 Wrote:[url:1mb04ok2]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/49*.html#30[/url]Forgive the deviation from testudines, but: Has anybody discovered how to make a functioning link to Bill's translation pages?! :?
Re: Testudo - Matt Lukes - 08-11-2007
The oval shields of the 'Auxiliaries' on Trajan's Column are depicted rather flat and nowhere do I recall them getting the same 'perspective' indication of shape that the semicylindrical scuta do, as are most if not all of those depicted on tombstones, so Dio may simply be referring to the clipeus. And it must be only one form of the testudo as well since there is one depicted on Trajan's Column (I think it is anyway) of a small assault testudo that is comprised of only a small number of men, all with semicylindrical scuta...
Re: Testudo - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-11-2007
I think it would be a matter of the situation dictating the use of a testudo, the nuimber of men being irellevant. The more the merrier tho'
Re: Testudo - PMBardunias - 08-11-2007
An implication of the ability of romans to form a testudo is that the scutum was assymetrical- longer on the bottom my at least the diameter of the grip- or all exactly uniform, which seems unlikely. Is this known?
I had asked about that paper on the Fulcum because the author posits that Arrian was describing this testudo-like formation and not anything like a hoplite phalanx.
Re: Testudo - Tarbicus - 08-14-2007
Quote:An implication of the ability of romans to form a testudo is that the scutum was assymetrical- longer on the bottom my at least the diameter of the gripWhy would that be, I don't understand why?
AFAIK, the shields found in any semblance of complete form are symmetrical.