Re: Bell cap how to

[jvrjenivs]

Sure, it sounds great, but again, why no widespread evidence of their use if they are in fact that innovative and efficient? It may just be that you have a preference to using these, which is why you defend them so staunchly.

It's more what you call 'widespread' evidence. I know of 3 belts with these still in place. 2 from the UK, one from the Netherlands. We also know them from chamfrons made in the UK along Hadrians wall. So, we know they were made in the UK, and the plate from here might suggest they also knew it here. Then, 3 times where this device is used, seems not much. But when we take into account that most belt plates don't show any washers attached anymore at all, that means we can't say anything about the frequency of these. Okay, we have more evidence of flat washers. Then, only people who knew these things will mention them in the report, and only if they were found on the back of a plate. (although I even don't think they would survive as a single piece).

So, we can now all make up our own mind. At least I've never suggested this is the way to rivet your beltplates. I only said I have done 2 belts this way, and I like it. And for that we HAVE EVIDENCE these were used on belts.

[Magnus]

But that represents a fraction of their usage Jurjen. Sure it's evidence that they were used, but that's it. In fact, your 3 examples proves my point that they by far were the minority, and not the majority. If that's the case, and they are that much more effective and innovative than flat washers, why so few finds? And even then, have the differences in plane elevation between inner and outer diameter been studied on these finds? I doubt it...which tells me that any arguments presented here are based on pure speculation.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Possibly they arew so few and far between, because they do take that little bit of extra time and effort to produce?
Not all craftsman have the same level of attention to detail, and some couldn't care less, as long as they got paid for what they made....
It does not negate the point that they are a superior way of doing it, over flat square washers, cut from a sheet.
Skill and finesse over brute force and ignorence?

[PhilusEstilius]

Matt.
In your previous post where you would question there wide spread use and also any reason that I defend them, I have no reason what ever to defend anything.
I myself and Jurjen have been giving evidence of where they have been used, infact earlier I even pointed out where Carol-van-Driel Murray who is an accepted world wide authority on Roman leatherwork has not only discussed them but has also written papers on them useing the same terminology of bell-cap.

Then in your last sentence which refers to assistant artisans coupled with your previous comments about the lack of skill in rivetting which ( how you have put it as Hulk Hand ) has happened to you before then maybe you would do well not only embrace the bell-cap but take it onbaord.

[Magnus]

Evidence of their use is great...that is not in dispute. You continue to avoid the topic of internal and external diameters coming in contact with the surface it's being applied to. Why?

And as far as Murray goes...I really don't care if one person is using that terminology, or 100. Credentials still don't make it correct. Perhaps Carol was looking to coin a new term, who knows. Maybe Carol didn't even know that there were a modern counter-part for these. Either way, it's irrelevant that Carol is using that term. It's a washer.

And my hulk-hands have nothing to do with wanting to use bell-caps. I just learned how to rivet properly without mashing the shank. Maybe you should call these things handi-caps. :twisted:

[PhilusEstilius]

Matt.

These diameters that you mention are of course the inside edge of the countersink that has been punched into the dome, the other being the bottom edge of the dome itself. Where I have said that the countersink hole is punched on a dome shaped former this tends to keep the inner edge of the countersink just above the lower edge of the actual dome.

When we use them with a rivet or an integral stud on a beltplate the bell-cap, or domed washer, or whatever else anyone would wish to call it, is not yet put on until belt leather is firmly put against the belt plate.
This is done by tapping the leather down with a tube or punch with a hole in it until it sits firmly on the beltplate, in the case of a rivet it's head would be sitting on a rivetting dolly with an integral stud this would be on a firm block with a piece of leather between the plate and block.
It is then that the bell-cap is put over the rivet or stud then with our tube or open punch this is also tapped down against the leather, I should stress very gently just a simple tap which helps the cap to just bite the leather.
This way there is going to be no bounce or movement whatever of anything, the excess of the rivet or stud is now cut off at around a couple of mm above the dome then very gentle tapping is done which spreads the rivet end into the countersink.

The inner edge of the countersink is now of course also down onto the leather but not severely, it is the gentle peening which locks the rivet or stud and only on estimation I would say of only about 10% of the poundage needed for a flat washer.
There is far less poundage in peening and the decorative plates become less damaged, and also less snagging of things under the belt or whatever they are used with. The whole concept of these things is to create less stress and damage.

[Magnus]

Matt.

These diameters that you mention are of course the inside edge of the countersink that has been punched into the dome, the other being the bottom edge of the dome itself. Where I have said that the countersink hole is punched on a dome shaped former this tends to keep the inner edge of the countersink just above the lower edge of the actual dome.

But again, the only way you know this is by modern reconstructions which you have made, as well as jurjen. We can't measure the originals...so we're agreed on that. Also, What do you think the difference is in height, if the outer edge is flat on a surface, and the inner is, as you say raised? Small enough that it's a negligable amount?

When we use them with a rivet or an integral stud on a beltplate the bell-cap, or domed washer, or whatever else anyone would wish to call it, is not yet put on until belt leather is firmly put against the belt plate.
This is done by tapping the leather down with a tube or punch with a hole in it until it sits firmly on the beltplate, in the case of a rivet it's head would be sitting on a rivetting dolly with an integral stud this would be on a firm block with a piece of leather between the plate and block.

I use masking tape to secure my plates to the leather. Works great.

It is then that the bell-cap is put over the rivet or stud then with our tube or open punch this is also tapped down against the leather, I should stress very gently just a simple tap which helps the cap to just bite the leather.
This way there is going to be no bounce or movement whatever of anything, the excess of the rivet or stud is now cut off at around a couple of mm above the dome then very gentle tapping is done which spreads the rivet end into the countersink.

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining how the process works, although really it's the same as using a regular washer. So much so that I'd say they are both washers and essentially serve the same function.

The inner edge of the countersink is now of course also down onto the leather but not severely, it is the gentle peening which locks the rivet or stud and only on estimation I would say of only about 10% of the poundage needed for a flat washer.

I disagree with this. What makes you think that there is any less force required to peen a rivet for a bell cap washer vs a regular washer? The hole diameter is the same on a bell cap washer (rivet shank diameter) as it is on a regular washer...so...the only amount of "poundage" required is the bare minimum needed to expand the shank past that hole diameter. I can gently tap a copper rivet with the best of them, on just about any surface...I don't require a bell cap washer to make my peening job easier. In fact, if required, I'd rather mushroom the shank out more to deter failure (seperation of materials), more so than can be done on a bell cap washer, since the raised sides could interfere with the mushrooming. Or it will get crushed.

Which brings up another point...these have only been found on belts and belt components right? Seems to me then that it would make more sense that they're used in cases where the peened end of the rivet and a square washer may get snagged on clothing (important clothing that is), and slowly damage it over time. Otherwise, why don't we see these on the inside of segmentata? The plates rub up against the subarmalis...so to me it doesn't really have anything to do with less stress, as it does garment protection.

There is far less poundage in peening and the decorative plates become less damaged

Could be a case of hulk-hand...I've never had issues with peening my belt plate rivets, nor have my belt plates ever been damaged due to riveting them to the leather. And trust me, I am no craftsman! lol. I tend to put 5 oz leather under my rivet head when I'm doing rivetting on a surface that could get scratched anyway. Works fine...sure don't need any bell cap washers.

, and also less snagging of things under the belt or whatever they are used with. The whole concept of these things is to create less stress and damage.

Less stress? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Less damage on garments, we're in full agreement!

[PhilusEstilius]

In my last post I tried to put forward an explanation of how a bell-cap is used or fitted, and of course to try and explain to most laymen the advantages that it has over a flat washer with respect to the engineering terminology of poundage.

This poundage is the amount of pressure that is apllied by the hammering process of peening, however I fail to understand how anyone who has not or is not prepared to try what Jurjen has put forward in his How to, other than simply try to pass the thing off as being no different to a flat washer just defeats logic.

Therefore if there is any other layman out there who fails to understand all that Jurjen and I have put forward, please do not be afraid to say so.

[Magnus]

I love Brian, how you are attempting to lead people down the "garden path" by essentially saying that anyone who disagrees with you must be a layman, and therefore not privy to common sense and logic.

Heaven forbid there are people who simply disagree with you because your logic is flawed.

That's really sad.

[PhilusEstilius]

Matt.

What I realy find strange is how some one who is so unfamiliar with a thing can ask so many questions about it, then when the others do give answers they are all wrong for he would still continue to say "no in my opinion it's not one of those it's one of these"
It does become very obvious to anyone that in all of these five pages of this topic you have been in opposition to anyone who has put forward anything about the subject including the very person who created it in the first place.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Matt, if you read back throug hthe threads, you will see these were also used on Horse champfrons. :wink:

[Magnus]

Matt.

What I realy find strange is how some one who is so unfamiliar with a thing can ask so many questions about it, then when the others do give answers they are all wrong for he would still continue to say "no in my opinion it's not one of those it's one of these"
It does become very obvious to anyone that in all of these five pages of this topic you have been in opposition to anyone who has put forward anything about the subject including the very person who created it in the first place.

I am unfamiliar with finishing washers? For real? And we're not talking some precise, complex piece of machinery or engineering. Brian....it's a washer. Get over it lol. The only person who I am in opposition to, really is you, and your lack of putting forth a convincing argument.

Even earlier in the thread when it wasn't just me...still you stubbornly and illogically cling to your ideas. Pot calling the kettle black?

You have provided NOTHING in the way of evidence to clearly say that your bell cap washers serve a function beyond what a regular washer does beyond clothing protection. I am still asking for that. All you have is some un-measured quantity of "10% less" poundage required for a bcw vs a regular washer. Ummm...yeah, ok. Where'd you get that number from?

All you have done is provide opinion, then toss around Carol's name because she also used the term "bell cap", and then made-up quantitative evidence alluding to the bell cap as being some kind of engineering marvel.

Seriously...I'm smirking right now, simply because to any rational person this is not evidence. I'm not sure what it is.

[Magnus]

Matt, if you read back throug hthe threads, you will see these were also used on Horse champfrons. :wink:

That's wicked! Did horses wear tunic with a balteus as well? Is that why the champfrons had them? :lol:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

LOL who ever saw a horse in a tunic..... :roll:

[jvrjenivs]

As I don't want to post in this discusion, I now see a very stupid debate growing. Especially as you're making a fool over yourself and anyone else in the topic.

We have 2 main sources for these things:

1) on Horse chamrons. In describing these items Carol called them Bell-caps.

2) on belt plates. I know 3 different types of belt plates that had such a thing on the back. 2 are from the UK, 1 from the Netherlands. Brian showed on of these plates (albeit from the frontview), and also mentioned one other example. Unfortunatelly I don't have the source of my 3rd example ready (that is, I've a pic, but lost where it came from, so I can't support that one by the means of an inv. #

3) Then there is also the horsegear pendant that was shown on the start of this topic.

So far only FACTS are given, right?

Now about the interpretation.
1) Carol describes them as a protection for the horse head. As soon as you've seen the back site of an original or a reconstruction of it (with the rivets done the right way) you immediately see the horse need protected. Partly this is done by the use of bell caps, partly with another layer of leather protecting the head.

2) WE (that is Brian and I) say it could be also used to protect your tunic. We NEVER told you the Romans used them for that. We only told you the Romans at least used them on some belts, just as they used flat washers. I don't see why you still can't say. It's your decision if you want to use them on your belt. I did on 2 of mine. On other belts I use flat washers. And you still says Brian nor I did provide any evidence they protect your tunic. Then you still don't get the function of these. When this is done you get also a completely nice dome without blurs. If you ever made flat washers, (I mean cut them from sheet, without sanding the edges, etc), you will notice blurs all around. I had these blurs scratching my tunic before. As by the use of the device discussed here, you only have a nice dome surface, this can't happen as there is nothing your tunic can stick to.