Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Re: Bell cap how to
#1
Thanks for the reply. I will try these out when I get around to making my belt.
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
Reply
#2
That's a good how-to Jurjen- a nice, simple method for creating a convex ring. But I've never heard the term 'bell cap' used in conjunction with a type of washer before- it's usually an exposed decorative element. The piece you have there is what's called now a self-aligning washer. I have a pendant with a true bell cap in its centre- a sheet metal hemisphere through which a rivet is passed, just as decoration. And is there any evidence at all that it'd be used with belt plates? I have two originals with definitely small, flat squares of copper alloy as simple washers, so clearly they worked just fine. That pendant image isn't really large enough to evaluate but it seems a odd choice to use since it has a loop (broken) at the top suggesting it was suspended from not rivetted to something, no?
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#3
Quote:That's a good how-to Jurjen- a nice, simple method for creating a convex ring. But I've never heard the term 'bell cap' used in conjunction with a type of washer before- it's usually an exposed decorative element. The piece you have there is what's called now a self-aligning washer. I have a pendant with a true bell cap in its centre- a sheet metal hemisphere through which a rivet is passed, just as decoration. And is there any evidence at all that it'd be used with belt plates? I have two originals with definitely small, flat squares of copper alloy as simple washers, so clearly they worked just fine. That pendant image isn't really large enough to evaluate but it seems a odd choice to use since it has a loop (broken) at the top suggesting it was suspended from not rivetted to something, no?

I have to admit I use the term bell cap just because thats the name Brian Stobbs use to call them. Most of the sources I have found for them are from horse gear instead of belt plates. As to you comment on the original I show, that is because of mis-identifying this object. It is from horse gear also. It's the upper part of a pendant. So this is the part attached to a lose hanging strap and originally the pendant was attached to this piece by the loop. So, you've to look to it the other way around. Hope it is clear what I mean.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
Reply
#4
Matt.

There is very good evidence of these bellcaps being used to secure plates to belts as also horse bronzes to harness, infact apart from the horse pendant with a one still intact that Jurjen has shown there was part of a one still on one of the studs at the back of this beltplate that I put in the British Museum.
http://www.northumberland-computers.com ... plt037.jpg
The term bellcap has been used now for many years in archaeology infact this was how these things were refered to at Vindolanda some time ago regarding one or two still intact in the original chamfron that I was commissioned to reproduce for them.
The interesting feature that I have found is that one can make a very good estimate of just how thick the leather of a belt was where the beltplate has fixed studs and bellcaps have been used for the countersink of the cap puts a shape on the end of the stud.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#5
Infact there is another reference to bellcaps on beltplates when we look at the plates found with the Velsen dagger.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#6
Ah, okay- it's not a very good term because these are washers not bell caps, but if there are examples of plates with them still extant, that is what counts. Too bad the photo you provide Brian doesn't show the back so isn't much help, and yes Jurjen, now I see what you mean- if it is in fact a terminus. It's a strange one though with the loop set that way- it's the usual way for a pendant, not a terminus, no? I'd certainly like to see a close-up of the washer though- not that I don't trust you or Brian, but it's always better to study original objects than people's interpretations of them :wink:

Below is an example of what would 'usually' be described as a bell cap- it's just a thin sheet metal hemisphere attached to the end of a rivet; note the small circular end of the rivet and the thicker shank. If you look for 'bell cap' on the Internet, you'll find modern jewelry findings as the source and they're all decorative exterior pieces. There are several examples of larger belt plates (a pair of 'Emperor and Cornucopia' from Cassenard, an embossed floral type from Serbia I think it is, a pair of silver-looking plates on very ornate buckles from I don't know where (I just have the photo) and I'd wager more, that seem to have these bell cap rivets- that is to say the 4 rivets aren't just large-headed, but are like this piece. I would credit Brian with making me realize the nature of the rivet on my pendant though- he mentioned bell caps to me when we talked once, and it wasn't until then that I realized the nature of the rivet; I was at a loss to explain how a rivet with a very thin, domed head could have been made but as a composite piece it's quite simple.

Not to hijack the how-to myself, the ones like are on the balteus plates I mentioned and this pendant are easy enough to make by simply drilling a hole in the metal prior to punching the dome as Jurjen has suggested, or even after if it's prior to punching it from the sheet. I've also found that just using a block of wood works well to form the domes on- no need for swage block or forming die, just the punch. Of course making the washers as he does, does require a metal form for punching the second hole and depressing the centre...

Just as a related aside, it's interesting- it would seem that a number of attachment methods were concurrent if you say the Velsen dagger had plates with these convex washers; I have in my own collection two of the usual style of Augustan belt plates (with geometric decoration) that have the pointed type rivets that are simply bent over, one whose rivets look peened but lack any washers, and two different styles of narrower plates that have normal rivets (with a head) that are peened over the usual squarish washers (third picture)
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#7
Large versions of this type of washer are sold under the title 'screw cup washer' in many diy stores, but they are definately neater in finish than the old style clipped square plate.
Adam Rudling
The Vicus - recreating life in 1st Century Britain
Reply
#8
Having examined the original closely, I would say that the term bell cap is a good way of distinquishing it from an ordinary flat washer Matt.
I wish I had my close up photos of it to hand, but you can take Brians word on it. I would say he is the expert on the subject.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#9
As I said before I had a computer crash on my windows machine. Actually these pictures of the original are Brians. If I can dig up my own, I'll post them accordingly, as they show a more close up of the washer.

Anyway, thanks for you detailed reply. It's always good to use more views to make up your own mind.
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
Reply
#10
My friend,
very good job, your hands are gold.
Hyrpus
Vincenzo Pastorelli
www.hephestus.net
www.arsdimicandi.net
Reply
#11
Jurjen
In not wishing to upset your how--to I just have to say that if Carol van Driel-Murry in reference to the Vindolanda Chamfron can call these items bellcaps as also in discussion by J.-M. A. W. Morel & A. V. A. J. Bosman in "An Early Roman Burial in Velsen" then that is what they are.
This she clearly states in the "Proceedings of the Fifth Roman Military Equipment Conference BAR 476 1989" and if there are those who might be doubtful that bellcaps were used on the only buckle of it's type ever to be found in Britain that I put in the British Museum then they will simply have to take my word for it as unfortunately I do not have a picture of the reverse of it.
Brian Stobbs
Reply
#12
Well not to drag this on, but it's not reasonable to just defer if one thinks something is wrong Byron, nor just to ignore it as that's how myths get started and continue- and we have enough of those LOL It's very bad form to just accept things because of the source and not because of the facts. None of these folks coigned the term afterall. If there's some kind of formal alternate definition, that's one thing, but it's hardly clearly correct and I'd say dubiously so given that a cap goes on top not on the bottom of something, no? Hell, a bell cap mushroom looks just like the piece I displayed and that's a formal name. A washer is a washer, however it's formed. I wouldn't even call this a bell cap if it did go on the outside since it's not a bell- it's a ring, right?
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
Reply
#13
Bell cap seems pretty good to me. Smile

See the helmet with the nick name Bicycle bell helmet?
I suppose you could call it the big mushroom washer helmet, but dosn't have the same ring to it.
The need to coin a term seems to be a human trait, and as we will never know what the Romans called them, why not go with what the guy who actually brought it to our attention call's it!
That is my only point here, and possibly all I have to say on the matter! Now I'm away to cherche la chiene and kick it!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#14
Thats it Byron? That is you final answer? What is this the Roman version of who wants to be a millionaire :lol:
"You have to laugh at life or else what are you going to laugh at?" (Joseph Rosen)


Paolo
Reply
#15
Quote:Thats it Byron? That is you final answer? What is this the Roman version of who wants to be a millionaire :lol:

Ahhh, can I call a friend, Roman and countryman! :?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply


Forum Jump: