Origins of the \'Hollywood\' Roman salute?

[Theodosius the Great]

There's a couple of more hands on the right-side in this shot.

I had to crop the photo due to the new posting rules :x

It's from the cover of my Letters of Pliny (Penguin Edition)

[Theodosius the Great]

How about this relief from Ephesos in modern Turkey :



Saluting his officer :?:

[Robert Vermaat]

There's a couple of more hands on the right-side in this shot.

Yeah, but no hand seems alike - some have clenched fists, some point with a finger, etc.

[Tarbicus]

Here are some more "gestures"

From FINE ART: ENGRAVINGS Domenico de Rossi: c. 1710

And a modern one Chelsea

Here's what I think so far (uh oh): The classic Roman salute is an honorific gesture to show some kind of sworn loyalty (perhaps the sign of an oath) and, importantly, reverence. The hand to head is a less formal gesture, perhaps to one who is simply of higher social or military rank, but not revered as an emperor (i.e. a god) or Rome itself would be, or even the Senate. That's just my opinion ..... up to now.

[tlclark]

Tarbicus has the number on this, but there is another angle.

I've been looking through my books. I had always thought the raised hand (which is never rigid as in the nazi salute) was the common salute. It is also the gesture of salutation and oration in art for adlocutio, adventus and oratio scenes., but I never see it used by anyone of lower rank. It is always from an emperor to his troops, or likewise from one upper classmen to another.

Hands raised by lower classes are not quite the same, and like Robert points out, it's hard to tell if they are actually saluting or just raising their arms in appreciation, like at a concert or rally.

Hmmm.

MOre to think about.

Gotta got the library and check out Brilliant's book on this.

Travis

[Tarbicus]

Here's a reference from Josephus, describing when camp is struck and the men prepare to move on:

Next, the military crier, standing on the CO's right, asks the soldiers three times in their native language if they are ready to fight. They shout back three times, loudly and enthusiastically, that they are ready before the question is even finished. They shout with their right arms held high, in a warlike frenzy.

'Voices of Imperial Rome', Guy de la Bedoyere

[A_Volpe]

shout with arms held high, in a warlike frenzy

hehehehe...

Rock Concert Movement #2: The One-Armed Fist Pump
...Ready - Go...

Please yell if you're paying attention...

Yeah those Legatae were Rock Stahs

- What is the Latin as mentioned for "Are You Ready?" "[Yes] We're Ready" - or how they said it, if that's known?

[Dagann]

A very interesting thread.

About the Trajan column, could not it be a artistic convention (is it the right saying?)
I mean, in many paints(of all periods), characters are showing the main character (here the emperor) to the spectator, often in a theatrical way.

So it may be not only discribing a "salute", but a way to bring the eye of the spectator to the Emperor.

[A_Volpe]

that's what I've been thinking too, a good point. Good possibility.

[Nathan Ross]

Yeah those Legatae were Rock Stahs

:lol: Funnily enough, that's what I thought of when I first read that Josephus quote - it does sound exactly like a whole bunch of metalheads. But surely not...

Then again, taking another look at the Trajan's Column relief - doesn't it look pretty much like the first four rows at a rock gig? (minus barriers, bouncers, stagedivers - probably deleted due to artistic convention) Perhaps that's all that's meant by all this 'acclaiming' and 'saluting' - exactly the same gestures that people use today to 'acclaim' and 'salute' those they admire: a pointing hand, a raised fist, a wave, or all of the above, all at once.

Anyway, regarding the title of this thread (which has been going on for almost a year - is that some sort of record? Should it get a medal? :wink: ) - as I understand it, the true originator of the 'Hollywood' (aka 'Nazi') Roman salute as we generally understand it today was the Italian poet, self-dramatist, war-hero and proto-fascist Gabriel D'Annunzio. In 1914 D'Annunzio wrote the screenplay for the silent epic 'Cabiria', about the Punic wars, possibly the first depiction of the Roman 'empire' on film and massively influential abroad. He also acted as 'historical advisor': being a huge egotist and everything he basically imposed his own view of what Romans looked like, including the 'one arm' salute, taken from ancient statues (notably those of M. Aurelius and Augustus) - this view was then adopted by Hollywood for their own Roman epics, and the look became a convention: leather tunics, little visored helmets, 'one arm' salutes etc.

D'Annunzio himself was not content with just writing epics - he wanted to live them too! In the first world war he distinguished himself flying planes and leading torpedo-boat squadrons (a little man, he loved fast machines), and in 1919 formed his own private army and led them to 'conquer' the city of Fiume. In Fiume he organised his followers (who wore black shirts) into Romanesque 'legions' and 'cohorts' and made the 'Roman' salute mandatory. He also named himself 'Duce', from the latin Dux. Needless to say, all this was later adopted in its totality by Mussolini, who in turn passed it to Hitler.

Interestingly, the Italian version of the 'Roman' salute seems not have been as stiff and jutting as the German one - more of a languid wave. Old newsreel footage of Mussolini on his walkabouts in the 20s and 30s show Italians giving the salute with the hand thrown up almost vertically above the head. When a large crowd all salute together, it resembles a horde of one-armed people trying to do a Mexican wave.

Anyhow - not sure if any of that is pertinent to the debate on 'real' Roman saluting at all...

[Praefectusclassis]

Anyhow - not sure if any of that is pertinent to the debate on 'real' Roman saluting at all...

Let's go back to Roman saluting, please. Intereting post Nathan, but this thread has caused the board mods and admins serious headaches (not on account of any current active member!) before on account of the modern variety.

[Nathan Ross]

Quite right too! - Sorry, I hadn't realised there had been a problem until I looked back through all the posts again and saw the odd lacuna in the middle there. Clearly a bunch of bad stuff got deleted out, but I never saw any of it so was't aware that difficulties had arisen... My post above was just for the sake of interest rather than a desire to raise the dread spectre of modern politics! Please feel free to delete if you feel necessary, Jasper.

- Nathan

[Praefectusclassis]

No worries Nathan. Just 'on guard' here.

[tlclark]

Just got back from the library, and for the heckuvit, I checked out Richard Brilliant's Gesture and Rank in Roman Art.

Not much of use on the salute I'm afraid. Every raised hand on the column of Trajan he identifies as a gesture of acclaim and not a specific military salute. The scene mentioned earlier in this thread is one he cites. He points out that the barbarians/dacians are shown in similar attitudes when Trajan offers them clemency, so that would tend to argue against those raised hands being specfic military salutes, but rather raised arms in general acclaim, as in the 'rock concert' theory. (No word on whether Romans made use of bic lighters. :wink: )

Otherwise Brilliant's treatment is entirely unsatisfying.

Every gesture by an emperor that resembles the open-handed salute, or raised hand with two or three fingers he describes as a gesture of oration or adlocutio, which seems rather ad hoc. It's rather circular after a while.

Oh well.

[Tarbicus]

Every gesture by an emperor that resembles the open-handed salute, or raised hand with two or three fingers he describes as a gesture of oration or adlocutio, which seems rather ad hoc.

There's always something to be said for a simple explanation, and I add that to my humble opinion that it signifies an oath or gesture of reverence and respect used by all, and is not a military salute which I tend to believe is the hand to helmet.

But that said, I can't seem to find any images of soldiers using the raised hand (adlocutio style) when wearing their helmets. Could it be that simple? Can anyone point to an image?